Porsche Mission E Revealed: 500 km/310 Mile Range, 60 In 3.5 Seconds, 15 Minute Charges

1 year ago by Jay Cole 121

Porsche Missan E Concept - 500 km (310 miles) Of Reported Range

Porsche Missan E Concept – 500 km (310 miles) Of Reported Range

It seems lately every new all-electric offering is compared to the Tesla Model S – perhaps rightly or wrongly.

But one thing is for sure thanks to Tesla’s dominant presence; if you want to compete in the high-end performance segment these days, it really has to have a plug.

And for once, Porsche may have actually come up with something that measures up.

The German company unveiled the Porsche Mission E Concept today, and the specs are impressive – as well as its looks, there is no confusing this with your average 4 seat sedan, this is a sportscar.

  • 500 km (310 mile) all-electric range
  • 0-100 km (62 mph) in “under 3.5 seconds
  • over 600 hp (440 kW) via two motors
  • 4 seats
  • 200 kmh (124 mph) in under 12 seconds.
The Porsche Mission E Certainly Lets You Know It IS A Sportscar

The Porsche Mission E Certainly Lets You Know It IS A Sportscar

Unfortunately, as the vehicle’s name implies on the stand at the Frankfurt Auto Show in Germany today were it debuted, it is still a concept, but Porsche intimates this vehicle will be on sale within 5 years.

The LA Times had a chance to speak with Wolgang Hatz, Porsche Global Head of R&D, before the reveal:

“We were asked many times, ‘Why don’t you do a pure battery car? We said it would happen when we can really deliver performance, reliability, and driving range. And now the time is right.”

800 Volt Charging? Yeah, It Can Do That - Now To Just Find A Station That Can Too

800 Volt Charging? Yeah, It Can Do That – Now To Just Find A Station That Can Too

One of the features as yet unseen in any production electric vehicle to date is the speed at which the Concept Mission E can charge at.

“charging time of around 15 minutes to reach an 80 per cent charge of electrical energy”

How is this accomplished?  The Mission E can accept 800 volt charges, so 15 minutes can net you 400 km (250 miles) of range. Thankfully, as this EVSE technology is non-existent at the moment, 400v boosts are still accepted.

“Doubling the voltage – compared to today’s electric vehicles that operate at 400 volts – offers multiple advantages: shorter charging times and lower weight, because lighter, smaller gage copper cables are sufficient for energy transport.”

The concept Porsche also features probably the coolest, interactive charge port we have seen in a production-intent model – as the company calls it, the Porsche Turbo Charging System.”  A moveable left wing, grants access to the 800v/400v, which also has a visible digitial readout to indicate charge status.

Comfortable (?) Seating For Four?

Comfortable (?) Seating For Four?

What we are still unsure of at this point is if all the “concept” features will ultimately make it into production, and if they do – how much will that cost.

Porsche’s R&D boss, Wolgang Hatz would only say “It will be competitive. But also (unfortunately) then added, “The Porsche is always worth its price,” as vehicles like the 918 Spyder can set you back $850,000 (USD)/€645,000.

Hatz also told the LA Times, the Mission E was not a response to Tesla:

“We don’t do a car because Tesla has done a Model S. We have our own plans. The time was not right before now to bring a pure battery car onto the market. But now the time is right.”

The Mission E features a mix of aluminium, steel and carbon fiber reinforced polymer to keep to very light, while (like all EVs) it has a very low center of gravity thanks to the battery.  Porsche does not outline exactly how many kWh the pack is, but we think probably the same pack as in the Audi e-tron Quattro at 95 kWh sounds about right.

The pack itself is mounted in the car’s underbody, and runs the entire length between the axles uniformed, which Porsche says results in exceptionally good balance.  The Mission E rides on 21-inch front wheels, with 22-inch wheels at back.

Mission E Concept From Porsche

Mission E Concept From Porsche

Full Press Blast from Porsche on the Mission E Concept Below:

World premiere for Porsche Mission E

In presenting the Mission E at the IAA in Frankfurt, Porsche is introducing the first all-electrically powered four-seat sports car in the brand’s history.

The concept car combines the unmistakable emotional design of a Porsche with excellent performance and the forward-thinking practicality of the first 800-volt drive system. Key specification data of this fascinating sports car: four doors and four single seats, over 600 hp (440 kW) system power and over 500 km driving range. All-wheel drive and all-wheel steering, zero to 100 km/h acceleration in under 3.5 seconds and a charging time of around 15 minutes to reach an 80 per cent charge of electrical energy. Instruments are intuitively operated by eye-tracking and gesture control, some even via holograms – highly oriented toward the driver by automatically adjusting the displays to the driver’s position.

Drive system

Porsche Mission E Concept - 100 kmh/62 mph In Less Than 3.5 Seconds

Porsche Mission E Concept – 100 kmh/62 mph In Less Than 3.5 Seconds

The drive system of the Mission E is entirely new, yet it is typical Porsche, i.e. proven in motor racing. Two permanent magnet synchronous motors (PMSM) – similar to those used in this year’s Le Mans victor, the 919 hybrid – accelerate the sports car and recover braking energy. The best proof of a Porsche is 24 hours of top racing performance and a 1-2 finish.

Together the two motors produce over 600 hp, and they propel the Mission E to a speed of 100 km/h in less than 3.5 seconds and to 200 km/h in under twelve seconds. In addition to their high efficiency, power density and uniform power development, they offer another advantage: unlike today’s electric drive systems, they can develop their full power even after multiple accelerations at short intervals. The need-based all-wheel drive system with Porsche Torque Vectoring – which automatically distributes torque to the individual wheels – transfers the drive system’s power to the road, and all-wheel steering gives precise, sporty steering in the desired direction. This makes the Mission E fit for the circuit race track; its lap time on the Nürburgring Nordschleife is under the eight-minute mark.

Porsche Is Mum On Price Estimates For The Mission E Concept

Porsche Is Mum On Price Estimates For The Mission E Concept

Driving range

It is not just passionate sportiness that makes up a Porsche but also a high level of everyday practicality. Accordingly, the Mission E can travel over 500 km on one battery charge, and it can be charged with enough energy for around 400 km more driving range in about fifteen minutes. The reason: Porsche is a front-runner in introducing innovative 800-volt technology for the first time. Doubling the voltage – compared to today’s electric vehicles that operate at 400 volts – offers multiple advantages: shorter charging times and lower weight, because lighter, smaller gage copper cables are sufficient for energy transport.

A moveable body segment on the front left wing in front of the driver’s door gives access to the charging port for the innovative “Porsche Turbo Charging” system. Via the 800-volt port, the battery can be charged to approximately 80 per cent of its capacity in around 15 minutes – a record time for electric vehicles. As an alternative, the technology platform can be connected to a conventional 400-volt charging station, or it can be replenished at home in the garage via convenient inductive charging by simply parking over a coil embedded in the floor of the garage from which the energy is transferred without cables to a coil on the car’s underbody.

Porsche Mission E Interior

Porsche Mission E Interior

Driving dynamics

Another feature that is typical of a Porsche sports car is a lightweight concept with optimal weight distribution and a low centre of gravity. The battery mounted in the car’s underbody, which is based on the latest lithium-ion technology, runs the whole length between the front and rear axles. This distributes its weight to the two drive axles uniformly, resulting in exceptionally good balance. In addition, it makes the sports car’s centre of gravity extremely low. Both of these factors significantly boost performance and a sports car feeling.

The body as a whole is made up of a functional mix of aluminium, steel and carbon fibre reinforced polymer. The wheels are made of carbon: the Mission E has wide tyres mounted on 21-inch wheels in front and 22-inch wheels at the rear.

Porsche Missan E Concept

Porsche Missan E Concept

Design

Every square inch, every angle, every radius of the Mission E reflects one thing above all else: emotional sportiness in the best tradition of Porsche design. The starting point is the sculpture of a sport saloon with a low height of 130 cm with sports car attributes from Zuffenhausen that embodies visible innovations such as its integrated aerodynamics. Distinctive air inlets and outlets – on the front, sides and at the rear – typify the body’s full flow-through design that enhances efficiency and performance. Integrated air guides improve airflow around the wheels, for instance, and air outlets on the sides reduce overpressure in the wheel wells, thereby reducing lift.

Inside The Porsche Mission E

Inside The Porsche Mission E

The much reduced sculpting of the front end shows a classic Porsche sweepback, and it relates the concept car to the 918 Spyder and Porsche race cars. A new type of matrix LED headlights in the brand’s typical four-point light design captures the viewer’s gaze. Integrated as an element hovering in the airflow of the air inlet, they lend a futuristic character to the front end. The four LED units are grouped around a flat sensor for assistance systems whose border serves as an indicator light. Distinctive front wings and an extremely low-cut bonnet reference 911 design. As in the 911 GT3 RS, a wide characteristic recess extends from the overlapping front luggage compartment lid up and over the roof. The line of the side windows is also similar to that of the 911, however, with one important difference: two counter-opening doors enable convenient entry – without a B-pillar. Another difference: instead of the classic door mirror, inconspicuous cameras are mounted on the sides that contribute to the car’s exceptional aerodynamics.

The rear design underscores the typical sports car architecture. The lean cabin with its accelerated rear windscreen, which draws inward at the rear, creates space for the sculpted shape of the rear wings that only a Porsche can have. A three-dimensional “PORSCHE” badge illuminated from inside hovers beneath an arch of light that extends across the entire width in a black glass element.

The interior of the Mission E transfers all of the traditional Porsche design principles into the future: openness, purist design, clean architecture, driver orientation and everyday practicality. The all-electric drive concept made it possible to fully reinterpret the interior. The lack of a transmission tunnel, for instance, opens up space and gives a lighter and more airy atmosphere to the entire interior. Race bucket seats served as inspiration for the four single seats. Their lightweight design is weight-saving, and it gives occupants secure lateral support during dynamic driving. Between the front seats, the centre console – elegantly curved like a bridge with open space beneath it – extends up to the dashboard.

Porsche Mission E Concept Designed With The Future Of Plug-In Porsches

Porsche Mission E Concept Designed With The Future Of Plug-In Porsches

Display and control concept

A new world based on an innovative display and control concept opens up before the driver. It is intuitive, fast and free of distractions – created for the sports car of tomorrow. The filigree driver’s display is curved, low-profile and free-standing. The instrument cluster shows five round instruments – they can be recognized as Porsche, but they are displayed virtually in OLED technology, i.e. by organic light-emitting diodes. The round instruments are organized according to the driver-relevant themes of Connected Car, Performance, Drive, Energy and Sport Chrono.

The controls are just as innovative. An eye-tracking system detects, via camera, which instrument the driver is viewing. The driver can then activate the menu of the instrument in focus by pushing a button on the steering wheel and navigate in it – which also involves an interplay of eye-tracking and manual activation. But that is not all: the display follows the seat position and body attitude of the driver in what is known as a parallax effect. If the driver sits lower, higher or leans to one side, the 3D display of the round instruments reacts and moves with the driver. This eliminates situations in which the steering wheel blocks the driver’s view of certain key information, for instance. All relevant information such as vehicle speed is always within the driver’s line of sight.

The Mission E can even portray driving fun: a camera mounted in the rear-view mirror recognizes the driver’s good mood and shows it as an emoticon in the round instrument. The fun factor can be saved together with individual information such as the route or speed, and it can be shared with friends via a social media link.

Porsche Mission E Concept - Complete With 4 Doors

Porsche Mission E Concept – Complete With 4 Doors

Holographic display

The entire dashboard is chock full of new ideas. Its division into two three-dimensionally structuring layers reinforces the impression of lightness and clarity. The upper layer integrates the driver’s display, and between the levels there is a holographic display that extends far into the passenger’s side. It shows individually selectable apps, which are stacked in virtual space and arranged by priority with a three-dimensional effect. The driver – or passenger – can use these apps to touch-free control primary functions such as media, navigation, climate control, contacts and vehicle. The desired symbol is activated by gestures that are detected by sensors. A grasping gesture means select, while pulling means control. Moreover, driver or passenger can use a touch display on the centre console to control secondary functions such as detailed information menus.

The concept vehicle can also be configured externally from a tablet via Porsche Car Connect. Using “Over the Air and Remote Services” the driver can essentially change the functional content of the vehicle overnight. A simple update via the integrated high-speed data module is all it takes to implement the travel guide or additional functions for the chassis, engine or infotainment system. The driver can use a smartphone or tablet to start updates conveniently from the Porsche Connect Store. Furthermore, Porsche Connect enables direct contact to a Porsche Centre for remote diagnostics or to schedule appointments. Another function of integrated Remote Services is the digital key, which can be sent via the Porsche Connect Portal. It not only lets the owner open the doors, but also other persons authorized by the owner such as friends or family. After successful authentication, the key can be used within a specific time frame and defined location.

The virtual exterior mirrors are literally eye-catching. The lower corners of the windscreen show the images of the outside cameras that are mounted in the front wings. The benefits: the driver gets a better view of images and the surroundings, and safety information can also be actively displayed there.

Porsche Video (below): With All Due Respect


LA Times

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121 responses to "Porsche Mission E Revealed: 500 km/310 Mile Range, 60 In 3.5 Seconds, 15 Minute Charges"

  1. Koenigsegg says:

    K that looks f**king awesome!

    1. Alaa says:

      The back seats look like they are very hard to get to. So it might have the good looks but it is hardly practical.

      1. Aaron says:

        That is one hell of a battery tunnel between the front AND back seats. No 5-passenger seating here, let alone Tesla’s 7-passenger seating.

    2. mo says:

      Wow! Great! Hey guys, I just built a unicorn robot that can fly to the moon and runs on hugs!

      JUST MAKE THE DAM CAR ALREADY. Stop promising vaporware cars, start production in very small numbers like Tesla did.

  2. Anonymous says:

    Yawn….
    Let me know when it’s actually produced and with the claimed 15min charge time.

    1. Cavaron says:

      Yesterday in Germany – the fastest fast charging station opened, capable of supplying 150kW via CCS:
      https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fnewsticker%2Fmeldung%2FErste-Schnellladestation-fuer-Elektroautos-in-Betrieb-genommen-2812264.html&edit-text=&act=url

      But even that would only give you 25kWh in 10 minutes…

      1. Cavaron says:

        PS: Funny that they count 150kW as the first “real fast charger”, while 135kW Tesla Superchargers are ignored. Those 15kW difference really make the difference between fast and slow I guess…

      2. Sveno says:

        That is combined output! 50kW fo CCS!

        1. Cavaron says:

          Well – they specifically said “Ready for future demands is seen by the fact that for each station about 200 kW of power are held in order to respond to future developments in battery technology”. The CCS-Plug can go to 150kW (but yes, the station is limited to 50kW for now) and there also is a 43kW AC Plug.

          https://translate.google.de/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fautos%2Fartikel%2FHochleistungs-Ladestation-an-der-A7-eroeffnet-2812039.html&sandbox=1

          1. Sveno says:

            Oh yes, correct. The charger is upgradable.

    2. Alaa says:

      +1
      By the time they make it who know how long will it take to charge a Tesla!

  3. Brian says:

    I will take things that will never go into production for 200 Alex.

    1. ffbj says:

      What is the all electric Porsche?

      1. Nick says:

        Right! The board is yours.

  4. Anonymous says:

    15 minutes to 80% charge = Proprietary Charger

    1. no comment says:

      the standards for level 3 EVSE go up to about 500 kW, so the 15 minute figure (the qualifier here is that we are talking about an 80% charge) is not unrealistic in theory.

      1. Anonymous says:

        I probably should’ve mentioned it’s an 800V charge per the picture.

        Not sure of any 800V chargers out there.

        1. no comment says:

          i don’t think that there are any half megawatt EVSE either, but to get to that power level, i would assume that you would need to increase the voltage delivered to the head.

        2. mustang_sallad says:

          Obviously there aren’t any 800V DCFCs out there now. Why would anybody have produced an 800V DCFC if there are no vehicles yet? This is how it starts. The fact that Porsche has worked in backwards compatibility with existing stations means that there are no chicken and egg paradoxes to get over first. They can launch this product today and get decent fast charging capabilities right out of the box. Kind of like how Nissa could launch the Leaf in 2010 and people could make do with existing infrastructure, and only enjoy their car more as DCFC networks grew.

          1. no comment says:

            my impression is that Tesla is also thinking in terms of evolution to EVSE that are in the 500kW range. not only has Tesla been talking about larger batteries, but there is a need to reduce charge times, and i believe Telsa is thinking in terms of getting the 80% charge times down to around 10 minutes. that would certainly make BEVs more viable; the question is can this be achieved safely? even with the 800V EVSE that Porsche envisions; who is going to be willing to insure such an EVSE? do you think that any building code would allow people to install such a beast at their house?

            1. Scott Franco, the greedy republican says:

              do you think that any building code would allow people to install such a beast at their house?

              No, but there are lots of other ways. Any industrial section of the city can drop that kind of power, which is common for industrial use. That means a well placed porche dealership, or someone who owns an industrial concern (this is a rich mans car, after all).

              All we need is a few of these 15 minute demo chargers running around to shut up all the idiots saying we need 12 inch diameter conductors to make that work are needed.

              1. Bill Howland says:

                I’ll believe this when I see it… Your statement about 12″ diameter conductors is he real idiocy here since the only time I saw something along those lines was supposedly a PhD in the letters to the editor of Scientific American years ago who said electric cars are impossible because of the amount of copper required.

                I regularly change my car with AWG #16 cord(actually 3 16’s and 2 18’s) -a very small cable, that came with my 2011 Volt, which i use for both cars most of the time.

                This to me seems much more of a joke since I don’t see who, even for the very well healed, will pay for it.

                Which is ‘publicly more beneficial’? Running a supermarket or charging up one car? Its really that silly.

                Now, in time, ( I wont live to see it ), batteries will be so cheap that a homeowner will trickle charge a ‘battery box’ over 24 hours, and then this will ‘dump’ into the car at a 300-500 kw rate in 15 minutes. But the amount of juice the ‘house’ would actually see will be much more along the lines of 3kw, drawn over the whole day, or somewhat more taken during off-peak times depending on when that is for the countries involved. In the US and Canada, this is the over-night period.

                Tesla is apparently getting S owners upset about reneging on their ‘$2000 agreement’. So apparently, 120 kw per car charging is starting to run up the cost for Tesla, and this could be considered to be around 60 kw at best an average per car, since the 2 stalls are shared per charger bay.

                A Halo Car charging at upwards of 500 kw does not seem as though it will be typical for quite some time to come, until devices become inexpensive enough and lossless enough to handle the heat disipation required. Of course, in the interim they can be force cooled, which just requires even more power. But again, without a battery dump box, I really don’t see who is going to pay for it.

            2. mustang_sallad says:

              You need an 800V EVSE in your home as badly as you need a gas pump. Even looking far into the future, I don’t see home charging at much more than 20kW unless you rely on a large amount of energy storage in the home. Energy storage in the home will probably happen for other reasons, but 100kW dumps into an EV will add a lot of cost, and I just don’t see the need when we’re all already used to going to gas stations.

  5. goodbyegascar says:

    Congratulations, Tesla!

    1. Anon says:

      +1

      Mission E sure seems like a clever way to get something close to “Model E”, which was blocked by Ford. This comes off as an intentional slap at Elon, imho.

      Still dig how Bolt and Porsche’s ME (too!) prototypes are using door handles pretty much ripped off from Tesla. 😀

      BTW: They’ll have to rethink that sliding front quarter panel charge port door. In hard, refrozen salt encrusted snow and ice, that door will be a bloody pain to use, being so close (a part of?) the front wheel wells. Try again, VW Group.

      1. goodbyegascar says:

        Tesla’ drivetrain DNA will start to appear in most new cars, starting with the luxury segment.

        I am going to call it the “Tesla Takeover.”

  6. Someone out there says:

    Finally a decent Tesla competitor! Not sure about the center console but it will probably be tweaked.
    The specs would be fine for a car that was launched today but in 5 years they are probably on the low side although they will probably get tweaked too.

    1. no comment says:

      this car will be in the “exclusive” category; meaning, high price, low volume. porsche is in a better position to do this kind of car than is tesla because volkswagen has high volume cars in its portfolio.

      what tesla has done is to show that there is a premium segment for electric vehicles.

      1. Someone out there says:

        Absolutely! Tesla opened the door but this is for rich people who wants a proper sports car, not just a family sedan.

      2. Coiled says:

        Right, and low volume will mean very few 800V charging stations compared to the infrastructure Tesla has already rolled out. Porsche drivers will get to supercharge at the dealership, just like Leaf drivers. Forget about road trips.

  7. MDEV says:

    Tesla designers should go for a refresh training, that is a good looking car.

    1. GregS says:

      The Tesla is a great looking car, and … you can actually buy one

    2. GeorgeS says:

      I agree it’s a winner.

      Look at Tesla’s offering lately:

      Boring family cars.

      The old Roadsters don’t stack up. Elon should be worried. The Germans know how to make a killer sports car.
      🙂

      1. Foo says:

        For $800K? I don’t think Elon should be very worried.

      2. Koenigsegg says:

        Aint nothing boring about a Red Tesla

      3. Someone out there says:

        Elon has no reason to be worried about this, this is not Tesla’s market. They did the Roadster because they didn’t have enough cash to set up a production line for a low margin, mass market car so they went for the high end where you can charge a lot for a few vehicles.
        However, Tesla’s plan has always been to produce affordable mass-market cars once they get things rolling. The model 3 is where Tesla are going to really change things.

    3. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      MDEV said:

      “Tesla designers should go for a refresh training, that is a good looking car.”

      LOL! This isn’t a production car. It’s not even a “concept car”, despite what the article says. It’s a concept for a car; a concept which exists only as a paper design and a computer model.

      Even if it does lead to a production car, you can be sure the real thing will be somewhat different.

  8. pjwood1 says:

    Great exterior. Interior looks a bit like climbing into a kayak. Otherwise, a performance car that won’t be programmed for soccer-Moms.

  9. Anthony says:

    To recharge a 90kWh battery to 80% (72kWh) would require a 300kW charger. That is a lot of power to pull from the grid at once. But due to the high voltage its “only” 375 A.

    1. no comment says:

      i don’t believe that you could do a full charge in 15 minutes.

    2. Dan says:

      Currently the CCS (SAE J1772 DC Level 2) standard, which is a 440V standard, is rated for 100 kW even though most cars using CCS can only pull about 50kW. Ford has talked about wanting to kick the CCS standard up to 150 kW. The Tesla Superchargers push 125 kW. Bus and truck chargers are already pushing around 300 kW and there’s talk of kicking those up to 1 MW. It’s not to surprising that Porshe is talking about going to 800 Volt chargers and pushing 300+ kW.

    3. DonC says:

      Forget practical. As I mentioned before, under CARB rules you get credit so long as the car is capable. Doesn’t matter if there aren’t any charging stations that will support the charging rate.

      That’s not a bad rule. There is a chicken and egg problem. If the cars aren’t capable you won’t find the chargers, and if the chargers aren’t there cars won’t support it.

  10. ModernMarvelFan says:

    Nice, probably going to start at $299,999…

    1. wavelet says:

      $300K? You must be joking.

      If it gets produced with specs anywhere like this (not counting the pie-in-the-sky holographic displays etc.), base price will be $800-900K, and after being optioned, very few if any will cost <$1M.

  11. Dave says:

    Good to see they are trying to get into BEVs. Funny how the CEO of Porsche was saying “I don’t know much about Tesla” just a few months ago and here they are debuting a BEV concept.

    We should calm down about how this looks, and the specs. It’s just a concept that they haven’t built yet. So they have no idea how far it will go. They have no experience with all-BEV car design and production… this will be their first car. We will look back fondly at this minimum set of “key” specs (which apparently doesn’t include battery capacity, but does include voltage???) and laugh at them when we see the actual car debut in 2019 or 2020. That’ll be when the Roadster is coming out, and/or revisions of Model S and so on. Between now and then they have to maintain desire for their brand. The Cayenne is about to be massacred… there will be a lot of Tesla loyalists by the time a BEV Cayenne comes out, and they will have to work hard to win back U.S. buyers, who by that point, may be happy to Buy American.

    Also there is no indication of how many they will build. If it remains an experimental car like the Mercedes AMG GT ED, only a few will be made, like the 918. I don’t see a car like that getting mass production.

    But it ought to be fun around a track.

    1. Steve says:

      If you think the X-egg is going to “massacre” the Ccayenne, you’re in for a surprise!

      Those that want an SUV with better mileage *and* looks good can get the hybrid. I’d personally go with the BEV regardless of looks, but mainstream buyers won’t.

      1. Ryan H says:

        Mainstream buyers in the US went with Tesla to the tune of 18,000+ Model S vs. 5,000+ Panamera. What makes you think the Model X won’t decimate Cayenne demand?

  12. Lou Grinzo says:

    When we see these vaporware announcements, we really should make guesses about which promised features will be quietly dialed back before the car actually hits the market.

    Right now, I put the Bolt in this category, as all we’ve seen is a concept. Will GM really be able to squeeze a 200 mile battery into the Bolt? That’s about 60kWh, given that the newest Leafs are 107 EPA miles on 30kWh. I’m glad I’m not part of the engineering team that has to figure that one out.

    1. DonC says:

      Well they said they’re getting more than 200 miles from the test cars. CARB rules are driving all these electrics. Given that you get more ZEV credits if the vehicle goes 200 miles than 199 miles, I suspect the Bolt will go over 200. Might not have power seats but it will go over 200 miles.

      In this same vein, you get more credits if the vehicle is capable of fast charging at the rate of the Porsche prototype. Doesn’t have to be able to use existing infrastructure. So I’m guessing the charge times are real. Perhaps not practical, but it will be there.

  13. Brent says:

    After having had our i3 for over a year, I don’t think I would like having another car with suicide doors. There are too make cases where you get stuck between the two doors, and having to open the driver door (removing your seatbelt first) before you can open the rear door sucks for passengers.

    1. ModernMarvelFan says:

      Mounting seatbelt to the seat and make the seat stronger would solve the issue with the sucide doors or door frame mounted seat belt issues.

      1. Dan says:

        We have an i3. I love the sucide doors.

        1. no comment says:

          you’ve got a passenger in the back seat who want to get out on the curb side. what do you do?

    2. wavelet says:

      “Suicide doors” just means the rear ones open from the front — it doesn’t necessarily mean there’s no pillar between front and rear doors. You can have rear suicide doors and a pillar, in which case they can be opened/closed independently of the front doors.

  14. Alex says:

    Will be a >200 000 $ car … and not very practical.

    1. mr. M says:

      “Not very practical” … yes the text says its a sports car. In my mind no sports car is practical.

      Oh and btw if you didn’t know: it’s harder for a truck to find a parking space in the city and most if the time they consume more than a prius.

      Glad to help you 😉

  15. ericonline says:

    And now the time is right… within 5 years. I’m gonna buy more shares of Tesla.

    1. Anon says:

      +1

      The game of “Catch Up”, continues but at a laughably slow pace.

      Can you imagine what a Tesla will be able to do in 5 years, when VW Group finally gets this to market???

  16. jerryd says:

    Looks like a Tesla S copy to me. Just Tesla did it yrs ago and faster too.

  17. GeorgeS says:

    This thing is to die for.

    1. Anon says:

      I like the generally clean, classic lines this has. The lowered front nose is attractive, even without a nosecose, but then, Porsche has always had that sporty aero look with their rear engine vehicles.

      The aggressive angle will of course, remove some serious front Frunk space; assuming their engineers designed room up front for customers to use in that fashion.

    2. no comment says:

      if you plug in an 800V EVSE and the thing arcs, you will likely achieve your objective.

  18. GeorgeS says:

    Charging Voltage is just like battery size.

    The bigger the better. less Cu cost

  19. Djoni says:

    Higher voltage for the traction system might save some weight a bit, but I wonder how much copper weight it could really cut.
    OTOH It sure does reduce electrical losses, but put a higher arc flash risk and therefore challenge safety.
    Anyway Porche put some effort that is welcome, if only in a concept, it’s a strong commitment to BEV and that’s worth noting it for all the electrofan.

    1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      Yeah. The reason “high voltage” systems start at 600 volts is that’s the point at which there starts being serious problems with electricity jumping the spark gap, say to the car’s frame or other conductive components. If this concept really gets built as a prototype — and frankly I doubt it will be — then it’s going to take some serious engineering inside the car to deal with 800 volt charging.

      1. Priusmaniac says:

        The ICE spark plug in any conventional car is operating at at least 20 times that voltage, so insulators are for sure up to the task right now.

        1. Djoni says:

          The voltage at the spark plug is high voltage with high impedance and low, very low ampacity.
          It’s almost static electricity, so it can spark a fire, but in no way ignite an arc flash that has a significant energy impact that a 800 volts 1kA+ short circuit that such a potent battery can provide.

          1. Priusmaniac says:

            If such a short circuit like even occurs it will trigger the fuse at the start of the battery or an electronically controlled shutdown according to an out of range amperage. So there is no real problem there neither.

      2. Jeff N says:

        An ordinary Toyota Prius already runs its inverter and electric motors at around 650v by stepping up the ~200v battery via a DC-DC voltage converter.

        1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          If so, then perhaps high voltage inside an EV isn’t nearly the barrier I thought it was. I hope that’s true, because higher voltage charging for BEVs will bring the charging time down. The alternative, limiting the voltage to 600v and increasing the amps, requires thicker cables and buses, and that much copper gets expensive.

  20. Specs say: “500 km (310 mile) all-electric range”
    But “so 15 minutes can net you 400 miles of range.”
    Really?
    Doesn’t “charging time of around 15 minutes to reach an 80 per cent charge of electrical energy” = about 400 Kms instead of 400 miles?
    0.80 (80%) x 500 Kms = 400 Kms in grade 1 math!

    1. Jay Cole says:

      “Hey, you guys look to have accidentally noted miles there instead of km, just thought you’d want to know” … I’ll just imagine you said

      /thanks Robert, fixed

      1. Hi Jay, Yes, Something like that! Not really checking grammar – just stats/specs and that caught my noodle! Thanks for the fix and clarification (250 Miles)!

  21. Under 3.5 Seconds 0-60? How much Under?
    Tesla Specs for the Earlier Roadster (with just one Motor) were about 3.6 Seconds and the Dual Motor (Heavier) Sedans are knocking off 3.1 Seconds (insane mode) and 2.8 Seconds (90 kW, Ludicrous Mode) – plus Elon has mentioned a new Roadster in about the same time frame (with ‘Maximum Plaid’ Performance) – so this Porsche won’t be alone!

  22. Dan says:

    I’ve been in a battle in Plugshare trying to get people to quit calling CHAdeMO and CCS (SAE J1772 DC Level 2) chargers Level 3 chargers. I keep saying that Level 3 chargers don’t exist in the United States yet. The SAE J1772 DC Level 3 standard has not yet been written. Maybe this prototype gives us a clue that the DC Level 3 standard will be based on 800 Volts.

    1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      It is useful to differentiate between 220 volt AC charging and even faster DC charging. Labeling those Level 2 and Level 3 seems appropriate.

      So I don’t understand why anyone would want to lump the two different charging formats under one label.

      There will certainly be future faster charging standards. No reason those can’t be labeled Level 4, Level 5, or any other integer. Level 10 charging, here we come!

      1. Dan says:

        I see nothing useful about providing misinformation. It’s a question of information accuracy. Are you going to call a lamb a lion? A turtle an oyster? A SAE J1772 DC Level 2 charger should not be called a Level 3 charger.

        1. Dan Says “A SAE J1772 DC Level 2 charger should not be called a Level 3 charger.” And – I think no one does, at least no one says a Level 2 Charger is DC, and if you can show me a Level 2 charger that can charge a North American Built car in 20 – 30 minutes (or less), I will give you a week at any of my Time Share Resorts – off of my points, if you can ship it to my house before the end of this month! Also – Level 2 Chargers start out at 20 Amps and go to 100 Amps at the Breaker feed (Clipper Creek Being the maker with the widest Selection), and are all AC Powered at 220V – 240V.

          Show us your argument with the links to the SAE Spec, thanks!

          (The World of SAE, of which you seem to be stating Toyota, Mitsubishi, Kia, etc., since they use CHAdeMO for fast charging – don’t belong to, is the only authority on what a Level 3 Charging station can be and the only body that can be the naming authority)

          1. Dan says:

            I think you’re confusing the SAE J1772 AC Level 2 charger with a SAE J1772 DC Level 2 charger. That’s my point, people talk about chargers without knowing what there talking about. The SAE J1772 AC Level 2 charger is 240V and is only good for anout 10kW. The SAE J1772 DC Level 2 charger is 440V and usually pushes out 50 kW but is currently rated for up 100 kW, ten times as much power as a SAE J1772 AC Level 2.

          2. Dan says:

            Oh by the way, there are about 250 SAE J1772 DC Level 2 (CCS) charging stations in the United States. The BMW I3, Chevrolet Spark EV and Volkswagen e-Golf are all sold in the U.S. and can all charge using CCS chargers.

            1. mustang_sallad says:

              It’s actually well over 300 last time i checked. And Dan is 100% correct about nomenclature for charging levels. It’s been years since the industry stopped using “Level 3” to refer to DCFC, but it’s definitely sticking around.

          3. Dan says:

            There is a good brochure of the SAE J1772 standards on http://www.greencarcongress.com.

    2. Bone says:

      “Maybe this prototype gives us a clue that the DC Level 3 standard will be based on 800 Volts.”

      IMO 800V (or doubling voltage to 880V max) won’t be introduced to CCS standard very soon, but I agree that this is a hint that such plans exist. VAG group is deeply involved in CCS development, and they wouldn’t throw in 800V even in a concept like this if there wasn’t some expectations to have that voltage in future CCS.

      I think proprietary Porsche charging network is out of the question. VAG group is committed to CCS.

  23. Dan says:

    Maybe my age is showing but the only thing I really find exciting about this car is the 800V charging system. Let’s face it even if this thing goes into production I’m never going to buy one. I doubt I could ever come up with the asking price for this car and even if could there many things that I would rather spend money on. But the introduction of 800V chargers into the electric vehicle charging infrastructure would make electric vehicles just that much more practical and would hasten the end of oil.

    1. Priusmaniac says:

      While we are at it, why stop at 800 V, we could directly go to 1600 V since that would be even more compatible with a 10 minute charge for a, by then, 150 kWh battery.

      Tesla has already demonstrated the snake charger and the active cooling cable, so going from 400 V to 1600 V is the last missing step to make the oil cars completely obsolete.

      1. Josh says:

        Transferring the power is only one side if the issue. The battery cells need to be able to safely accept the power and stay cool. The latter is the more difficult problem to solve.

        Once charging rates pass 1 * C, these issues become real. Tesla SuperChargers are still staying below 1.5 * C charge rates.

      2. Dan says:

        I already said that developers are talking about 1 MW bus and truck chargers. But in the automotive arrena we are struggling to get electric cars on the DC fast charging capabilities much less charging stations to support them. But it’s nice to see the envelope get pushed out just a little further.

    2. mustang_sallad says:

      I may find the car itself a bit more exciting than you (come on! think of how far EVs have come in the past 5 years up to this point!) but I agree that the 800V charging is the most exciting aspect to this concept. I hadn’t expected anyone to jump up this high, although 600V has been discussed to a certain degree. I suspect they have two packs in series that can be reconfigured in parallel to enable charging at up to 400V on existing DCFC stations. This eliminates any kind of chicken and egg scenario.

      This concept hadn’t occured to me before, but I’m already thinking that the entire industry will move towards this eventually, assuming any challenges around safety and electrical isolation are surmountable.

  24. Phr3d says:

    This is -classic- Porsche on so many levels, and not in a good way..

    ROFLMAO

    but hey VW, if it increases RD dept e-budget, go man GO.

    1. PVH says:

      This is exactly the way to look at it, never to forget that Porsche is somehow the R&D dept. of currently the world largest car maker. What Porsche makes is not really significant, it is what the group as a whole will make of this technology that is important. For example, it is now many years that Porsche win car races with lithium batteries equipped hybrids (Porsche 919), that is where it starts.

  25. Chris says:

    If this is really available in 5+ years, it will have to be compared to the NEW Tesla Roadster, which will likely match performance at a much lower cost.

  26. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

    The article says:

    “[quote]charging time of around 15 minutes to reach an 80 per cent charge of electrical energy[unquote]

    “How is this accomplished? The Mission E can accept 800 volt charges, so 15 minutes can net you 400 km (250 miles) of range.”

    WOW! I’d love to see that demonstrated; I hope it’s true. Arriving at the “300 miles of charge in 10 minutes” milestone may happen years earlier than I thought!

  27. Pete says:

    Elon can relax, a 200.000-300.000 Dollar Porsche will never Sell like Model S which outsold BMW 7series in First half year World wide and in Markets like Norway, Denmark, US, Switzerland sells like crazy.

  28. VincentP. says:

    the 800V doesn’t allow you to charge your battery faster : the charge rate of the battery is still important.
    If we assume it can be charged in 15 min, the internal resistance of each cell is very low.
    And if there is very few heat losses in the battery, Porsche will have a very big advantage against TESLA (for now) : they can perform 2-3 run in the Nürburgring, where the model S is overheating in half a run …

    But if Porsche intimates this vehicle will be on sale within 5 yearsr, TESLA will show the new Roadster before …

    1. Priusmaniac says:

      That is correct, but at least it deals with the question of the energy transit from the charger to the car. Remains now to improve on the cells so that they can swallow it as fast as it comes in. The blocking factor there is the electrode surface, it must be increased so that more charging reactions can take place simultaneously.

    2. no comment says:

      we are surely talking a very high C-rate battery, here. but battery technology has to evolve in a substantial way to be competitive with ICE: energy density has to improve by an order of magnitude (theoretically possible); cost/kWH needs to decrease by a couple of orders of magnitude; and the C-rate needs to increase by more than 1.5 orders of magnitude. in addition, there has to be a way to safely recharge the thing.

      that’s why i’m not a big fan of the BEV as a platform that is likely to replace the ICE platform. the most practical option for the present time is the PHEV platform, especially when it is implemented in the way that is done by GM. FCEV offers a possible path to the emissions free vehicle, but at present it seems pretty much pie in the sky. the other option for BEVs is a massive rebuild of the road infrastructure to support in-road wireless charging; this relieve much of the pressure for on-board stored energy.

      1. Lindsay Patten says:

        How did you arrive at those orders of magnitude? I would think that battery cost dropping by a single order of magnitude would be enough, and with a single order in magnitude faster charge rate ICE would be toast.

        1. Priusmaniac says:

          It also seems to me that a single factor two on battery capacity, charge rate and price reduction would be enough to deal with the ICE and further would be great but already in the extra territory.
          Actually next starts the other interesting conquest of the airlines.

  29. Seth says:

    Unfortuntaly, none of the existing Lithium batteries except for Lithium Titanate can charge with more then 3C.

    This reeks of a hypothetical solid state lithium battery. And in 5 years, too, whatever. The Model S was designed and built in less then 5 years. This is in not in any way impressive, cool art work though.

    1. Bone says:

      There are many batteries that can take 4C or even higher. For example A123 cells can be charged at 4C, and even that is only maximum recommended by manufacturer. Some RC guys have charged A123 cells at over 10C, but cycle life may be reduced. 80% in 15 minutes is only 3.2C.

      1. Tech01x says:

        The trick is getting high specific energy, high charge c-rate both while still getting decent cycle life. The problem with any of the chemistries that achieve high charge c-rate and get good cycle life is that they have low specific energy. Stuffing 90 kWh of them into a car would be a weight disaster. This is all before talking about cost per kWh. Basically, Porsche is spreading FUD since this battery chemistry doesn’t yet exist.

  30. mr. M says:

    This car will have max 80kWh. It will be lighter than the model s, and is far smaller. Therefore you will have a battery that is between 10% to 20% smaller than the s85 to match the same NECD range.

    Think about the following calculation, CCS is speced at max 170kWh. If you use full power for 15 min you gain 42,5 kWh. So battery full will be ~53kWh netto (usable) and 60-65kWh brutto (all).

  31. Coiled says:

    Super-fast charging is great but only if you can actually use it. When Porsche develops a comprehensive, well-planned fast charging network like Tesla has, then I’ll be impressed. That will never happen.

    It doesn’t seem like anyone has a serious plan to compete with the supercharger network. Do they not understand how important it is?

    1. Priusmaniac says:

      The dream scenario is Porsche joining the Tesla supercharger network and Tesla upgrading them to 800 V.

      A double win.

    2. Braben says:

      I rather think they understand that proprietary charging networks without a sustainable business model are not the solution. Develop a standard and find a way to make charging stations profitable for 3rd parties, and they will quickly overtake any proprietary system that is backed by only a single company.

      1. PVH says:

        …so true.

      2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        Braben said:

        “Develop a standard and find a way to make charging stations profitable for 3rd parties, and they will quickly overtake any proprietary system that is backed by only a single company.”

        Right. It’s not realistic to expect any gasmobile auto maker to pay for building its own equivalent of the Supercharger network. Nor is the EV revolution going to advance that way. Even Tesla wouldn’t build Superchargers if they didn’t help promote sales of their cars.

        Sooner or later, a real charging standard — not multiple competing formats, like CCS vs CHAdeMO — will be adopted, just like all gasmobiles have a standardized filler neck to receive a standard gas pump nozzle. If every gasmobile manufacturer had to build its own network of gas stations in order to support its fleet of cars… Oy!

      3. John in AA says:

        I think you just said

        1. Develop a standard
        2. …?
        3. Profit!

        Yeah, sure if you can figure out how to create a standalone profitable charging network, great, go for it! You’ll get rich. In the mean time, the fact is nobody has done this yet, and anyone who waits for the market to create it before they move to take their piece of the EV market is going to lose, big time, because Tesla has already figured out that perfect is the enemy of good, and they have rolled out a good-enough solution to the problem while others are saying “can’t be done.”

        “People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.”

    3. no comment says:

      based on your reasoning, Tesla obviously sees something that no other automaker sees.

  32. jelly says:

    After 5 years?? 5 years? so its 2021? muhahahaaa

  33. Just_Chris says:

    Hi Jay and co. Is this a good place to mention the new priminister of Australia is a fan of Tesla’s? Malcolm Turnbill spent his summer break at the tesla fairmount factory

  34. Sommer says:

    Here is a german TV video (ZDF heuteplus of September 14, 2015) about the Audi Q6 electric formerly known as Tesla fighter, the Audi appears at 10 minutes and 53 seconds, and yes the presenter visits Audi in Ingolstadt in a Tesla Model S, strange kind of humor.

    Look:
    http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/beitrag/video/2490606/heute%252B-vom-14.-September-2015?setTime=678.403695

  35. Brian says:

    Tesla has “Supercharging” and now Porsche has “Turbo Charging”? Really? Can we PLEASE think up some new terms here?

    1. Josh says:

      I noticed that too. Seems like a total copycat move.

      I understand Tesla trying to use some legacy lingo to help introduce concepts. But Porsche using Turbo Charging will be kindof confusing when they also sell Turbo chargers on the gassers at the same time.

    2. Bill Howland says:

      GM has their MEGACHARGER : 300 MILES IN 2 minutes. That is if you put the right zip code into the gas dispenser.

  36. Mister G says:

    Lower gasoline prices aren’t making the transition to BEV any easier.

  37. finecadmin says:

    “(like all EVs) it has a very low center of gravity thanks to the battery.”

    Vehicles with high-mounted batteries:

    -KTM Freeride-e
    -Tacita T-Race
    -Wright Streetlite EV (partly)
    -multiple Bombardier models
    -Hino S’elega (hybrid)
    -Solar Impulse
    -most challenger/adventure class racers

    So, anything not a cage isn’t viable, Jay? Or you’re doing your Sarah Palin impression, and redefining “real vehicles” as your personal preconceptions?

    1. Jay Cole says:

      I’m redefining “real vehicles” with my personal preconceptions – I have that kind of power. Adjust your thinking from here on forward accordingly, (=

  38. Frank the Tank says:

    I hope they make it soon so I can read posts about something other than Tesla’s

  39. Lindsay Patten says:

    Please note, it is possible to design an attractive front end that doesn’t involve a grill or nosecone.

    1. Anon says:

      I’m OK with letting every EV look like a Porsche in the front. 😉

      This car should have gone with the more traditional oval Beetle Style headlights. Not a fan of squares. Gah.