Koch Brothers Ready Multi-Million Dollar Attack On Electric Cars – Elon Musk Tweets “Sigh”

2 years ago by Steven Loveday 196

Elon Musk Tweets "Sigh"

Elon Musk Tweets “Sigh” (via @elonmusk)

Koch Industries At A Glance - Click To Enlarge

Koch Industries At A Glance – Click To Enlarge

Charles and David Koch (aka The Koch Brothers) are making plans to fund a group that will promote fossil fuels and advocate against government subsidies for electric vehicles.

There are few details as to when the group will begin their pursuit, but the expectation is that the group will use media to push pro-petroleum messages, supported by research.

Koch Industries is the second-largest private corporation in the U.S. with annual revenues of $115 billion. The Kochs plan to spend $10 million dollars a year on this initiative.

The billionaire brothers have a history of supporting groups that have spent millions to fight alternative energy. The groups have attacked wind and solar projects and contested fossil fuel’s role in global warming. An anonymous industry source explained:

“I think they (are) approaching all the major independent refiners. The group’s broad mission will be to make the public aware of all the benefits of petroleum-based transportation fuels. He added that, “the current administration has a bias toward phasing out these fuels.”  He also said, “They’re (The Kochs) worried about state and community subsidies. In 20 years, electric vehicles could have a substantial foothold in the U.S. market.”

Charles and David Koch are building the group with James Mahoney and Charlie Drevna. Mahoney is on the company’s board and Drevna is a lobbyist with prior experience in pro-petroleum initiatives. Last year, Mahoney and Drevna met with executives at Valero Energy and Tesoro Corp. to pitch the group. Mahoney went on to lead a seminar on “Changing the Energy Narrative”, that drew in energy company CEOs and other wealthy participants.

Sources are speculating that the Mahoney-Drevna group may be overlapping with other Koch-funded advocacy groups. One source said,  “The new organization may be doing work that’s now being done by the Institute for Energy Research.” The IER has been promoting fossil fuels and attacking electric cars for years, but this new group plans to promote its message to a much larger audience through media.

Drevna was recently named a “distinguished senior fellow” at IER. Following his appointment to the board, a paper was released attacking Elon Musk’s Tesla Motors.

Electric vehicles only account for 1 percent of the U.S. market, but that number is rising. It has been estimated that this will rise to 5 percent by 2025. Varun Sivaram, an energy and environment fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations pointed out:

“Electric vehicle adoption started slowly, but it certainly is going to follow an exponential growth trajectory. Once electric vehicle adoption hits a critical mass, I think it will take refiners, petroleum producers and automakers by surprise.”

This is why the Koch brothers and their supporters are concerned and are now taking action.

Elon Musk publicized his concern with the announcement via Twitter (his typical media for expression). He simply tweeted “Sigh  . . .” (and the retweets and comments immediately blew up)

Source: Huffington Post, hat tip to Michael R, Teng Y!

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196 responses to "Koch Brothers Ready Multi-Million Dollar Attack On Electric Cars – Elon Musk Tweets “Sigh”"

  1. Get Real says:

    Cigarette Science and Merchants of Doubt. To bad the Koch Heads won’t move to Saudi Arabia.

    1. Liz says:

      Saudi Arabia is more supportive of alternative energy.

      1. Anon says:

        Ironic, but true.

        1. evcarnut says:

          The Saudi’s are “N0T” Heartless….They do have a sense of Responsibility…They are very Decent
          People………………………………..(I’m not Arabic)

          1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

            You must be talking about some other “Saudi” than Saudi Arabia. The Saudi rulers use most of the oil money to enrich themselves, refusing to share it with their own people. Those sheikhs invest very little of their oil income in education, infrastructure, or job creation for ordinary citizens of their own country.

            Saudi Arabian aristocrats suppress their own people so severely that the only outlet ordinary citizens are allowed is through religious expression. The Saudi rulers allow the extremist sect of Wahabism to flourish. That sect teaches nothing but the Koran and hatred of the West. That’s why 15 out of 19 of the 9/11 hijacker terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. Let’s remember that Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi, too.

            The extremist form of Islam that keeps spawning new groups, each worse than the last, like ISIS, started with Saudi Wahhabism. Despite all this, the Saudis have done absolutely nothing to put a stop to how Wahhabists preach hatred of the West. See “The Saudi Connection: Wahhabism and Global Jihad”:

            http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/saudi-connection-wahhabism-and-global-jihad

            Suppression of women’s rights and minority religions, and denial of civil rights in general, is well known to be extreme in that harsh, oppressive regime.

            Some people think that attacking Afghanistan after the 9/11 attack was hitting the wrong target.

            1. Epicurus says:

              Yep. Thank the Saudis for spreading their twisted, violent religion–and terrorism–worldwide. They have financed hundreds or thousands of madrassas which function to indoctrinate children all over the world in terrorism and their violent religion.

              Why didn’t the U.S. government try to wean us off oil after the first oil embargo in the 70s? Because the Saudis own most of our politicians through gifts and sweetheart business deals.

              1. james b. says:

                Take a look how the Saud family came into power… and stay in power.

    2. evcarnut says:

      Why sweat it Koch boys.. There are a million by-products we will always need from your 0IL & it’s not like you need the money…………….. l o l

      1. super390 says:

        But they won’t give the makers the leverage over society that energy does. Much of the modern right-wing movement is built on the footprint of suburbia that cheap oil made possible, and its Vatican is Texas.

        1. TomArt says:

          well-said!

      2. Epicurus says:

        Transportation fuel accounts for 70% of the demand for oil. Imagine the price drop if demand fell 70%. The Kochs don’t want that snowball pushed off the top of the mountain.

  2. GeorgeS says:

    Unfortunately I think we need to face the fact that the 7500$ tax incentive may go away with the next administration.

    1. Jon says:

      it only has 200k credits it will go away regardless who is elected.

      1. Josh says:

        Just to clarify that statement…

        Each manufacturer is allowed the full $7500 credit for the first 200k vehicles manufactured for US sale. Then a phase out starts every six months (50%, then 25%), so the credit lasts almost 18 months after the 200,000th vehicle is produced, regardless of numbers.

        So if we are talking about Tesla, they could theoretically reprioritize manufacturing, directing nearly everything to the US, once that 200,000th vehicle is produced. I don’t think that will happen, but an example that the credit isn’t gone at vehicle number 200,001.

        1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          Yes, but this isn’t all about Tesla.

          Other auto manufacturers still have most of their “slice of the pie” of tax credit left, and Congress could easily end that quite abruptly. Ending the credits soon would cut Tesla off earlier, too.

          To be honest, I’m surprised it hasn’t happened already, with both houses of Congress controlled by the GOP.

        2. Tim says:

          The credit can be extended indefinitely with my new company called Teasla Motors. Perhaps you’ve heard of our tagline “Designed and Manufactured Under Contract by Tesla”. We haven’t yet sold our first car, so we have plenty of tax credits left available to our customers.

          1. zzzzzzzzzz says:

            Frankly it would really be fair to cut these credits once they expire for current electric car makers. Both to prevent abuse like you described and not to reward “non-makers” who were doing nothing and now would just start taking profit when technology is jump-started by others. The income credits should never have been assigned this way, and should not apply to $40k+ cars. CARB is enough. Too much incentives lead to all kind technologically weird financial engineering just for incentives.

    2. Rebel44 says:

      I doubt that

    3. Anon says:

      Which is why no sane citizen should vote Republican / Regressive / Xenophobic / Pro-Corporate Polluter / Teabagger / Koch Bros. Puppet.

      1. Ah there it is, the name calling tirade from the left. Well done.

        1. Stimpy says:

          How about a rebuttal to the points raised here?

          Do you agree with the Kochs that we should stay slaves to oil industry forever, regardless of technical advances?

          1. gsned57 says:

            Staying a slave to fossil fuels isn’t a conservative/republican initiative. The Koch brothers are trying to buy support and if their “Research” group can show that solar/wind disproportionately affects the poor who can’t afford solar panels and EV’s they’ll work with the left to fight the evil 1% who can afford such luxuries. This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with proffit. Politics gets sucked in because policy can help get an industry started (EV/Renewable incentives). The reason they support right leaning politicians is because they can often times leverage the fact that tea party folks, libertarians, and fiscal hawks see our country sliding deeper into debt every year. The support they get from folks on the right is simply about defecit spending and seeing our country so far in debt that every man woman and child in America could pay about $30K and we’d just about get out of debt. To your point I don’t think Anon’s comment required a response but here you go.

            1. super390 says:

              The deficit hawks looked the other way when Reagan used CIA exaggerations of Soviet military strength to vastly increase Pentagon spending while he gave massive tax cuts to the rich, buying into his claim that he was just restoring military parity with the Soviets when in fact he was aiming at overwhelming superiority.

              Then once the Soviets were crushed by his secret deal with the Saudis to collapse oil prices in ’86, the deficit hawks looked the other way about bringing our troops home and shutting down the war machine.

              It was the extra margin of spending on the military that thrust us into deficits over what we already were spending on all programs, but the entire right wing worked together to enshrine the idea that it was all the other programs that were the “excess”, and the war spending that was normal, necessary, even sacred.

              A Reagan cabinet official inadvertedly exposed the whole scam when he wrote his autobiography, describing how Reagan’s cabinet intended for the military hikes and tax cuts to force America into a fiscal crisis that would be used to only kill programs that helped those Americans they regarded as the enemy. That project is still under way – as seen when Wisconsin’s Tea Party governor enacted tax cuts for business, then declared a financial crisis as an excuse to break the state employees’ unions, even the very right to form unions (like Reagan’s Polish Solidarity heroes).

              There are no deficit hawks. There are only people who want to see the brutal inequality of the past restored by whatever trick works, and they have largely succeeded.

          2. Well my reply was to Anon, who raised literally zero points for me to rebut. All he did was name call.

            Now, if you want me to argue in favor of the Koch brothers trying to prop up fossil fuels, I won’t. I like them and generally agree with their politics. I also believe they aren’t evil people and can see the good they have done and are doing in our world with the blessings they have. But I believe gas powered cars are a dying breed, and that EVs will one day make up the vast majority of the car fleet in this country and the world. And I also believe that no amount of money the Kochs spend will stop that, it is an eventuality. Therefore I’m not going to get all worked up about this.

            1. sault says:

              Hey, Chevron bought up the patents to the previous generation EV batteries and sat on them all while suing Toyota for $20m for using them in the Rav 4 EV. It doesn’t take much to stall things at this early stage of the market and Chevron probably delayed things by at least 10 years.

              While $10M / year is chump change for the Kochs, it is just a symptom of the much larger problem of these guys trying to craft the country’s political and economic progress in their own image with piles of money. Only politicians that won’t suffer election losses due to the vast network of Koch (and others)-sponsored groups dare to speak out against them. The true extent of their donor network is unknown since even political spending disclosure laws are next to useless. And when you get right down to it, should a small club of billionaires that probably number less than 200 people have such outsize influence in our politics? Yes, I’m begging the question, so sue me! But seriously, we fought a Revolutionary War to separate ourselves from a system of hereditary titles and oppressive aristocracy. Why should we allow a form of Neo-Aristocracy take hold by allowing the wealthy and powerful nearly complete control over how wealth and power is distributed?

              1. G2 says:

                Hear here! Well spoken.

              2. lad says:

                Essentially we, the small people, have two forms of power to influence how our capitalistic society functions; our vote and where we spend our money.

                On the other hand, the one percent has the additional power of amassed money to influence public decisions; which is particularly powerful now that our country is controlled by an oligarchy of corporations, lobbyists and bought politicians from both parties.

                We, the small people, do have the additional power of educating the ignorant against the professional propaganda forces financed by the 1% folks like the Kochs. We need to counter by becoming more active in the media. i.e., newspapers, internet sites and word of mouth, etc.; debating among ourselves on technical sites doesn’t do much to reach the folks that vote and buy goods, the folks who appear to be so easily led by professional propaganda.

                If you believe in EVs and renewable energy, let everyone know why.

              3. Fool Cells says:

                kind of like Hillary buying super delegates?

              4. Epicurus says:

                Just like the drug companies tweak their drugs–like making them time-released–in order to extend their patent monopolies and keep cheap generics off the market.

                Did anyone invent anything before patents came into existence? I think so.

        2. Alpha777 says:

          What bothers me is the HUGE Hypocrisy of the right.
          The oil and fracking industry has special tax treatment for Every Step in the Manufacturing Process.

          We’d save hundreds of millions of dollars every year if we could just cut them off the federal tit.

          1. Fool Cells says:

            and that is different from the HUGE hypocrisy of the left?

            1. super390 says:

              The burden is on you to justify the staggering leap in wealth inequality in America since the election of Ronald Reagan and the empowerment of his doctrines of tax cuts and deregulation.

              America’s Golden Age was during the decades when its wealth inequality was greatly reduced under Franklin Roosevelt, millions of returning veterans were given free college, the top income tax rate was hiked to 91% (a bipartisan consensus), and the most powerful tax loophole was for business owners to invest in their own businesses, not speculating on quick kills in the stock market.

              All of that was destroyed by the dogma of trickle-down economics in both parties, but turned into a sacred test of Americanism by one.

              So to justify that massive rise in inequality, you’d have to prove that the rich either suddenly gained far more “merit” in 1980, or they had that merit during the 40 years previously but were oppressed by an economic system that just happened to work better than it has since Reagan liberated them with tax cuts that he himself later had to roll back.

              1. Fail Cells says:

                there is no such burden on me for anything. The onus is on you to explain why “wealth inequality” is anything by envy and jealousy.

                It is up you to explain why your progressive 1%er puppet masters are ok to be wealthy but “right winger” 1%ers are bad.

                It is up to you to explain why socialism around the world has far greater “wealth inequality” than in the USA.

                please do…i await your enlightening explanations…

        3. jerryd says:

          Yet accurate Rightofthepeople!! It is long known the Koch father helped start the John Birch Society which is all those things and more.
          Koch is a pig living off the tragedy of the commons making money but leaving the mess for the taxpayers to clean up.
          He doesn’t want regulations making him clean up his own mess, pay those costs instead.
          Do you think we should let him keep polluting, etc and taxpayers paying to clean it up?

          1. Fool Cells says:

            i supposed Buffets oil trains run on pixie dust?

            1. super390 says:

              Warren Buffett is not Bernie Sanders. If you’re calling Warren Buffett the “Left” now, that’s like Joseph McCarthy claiming Dwight Eisenhower was a communist.

        4. Kevin C. says:

          Shrill, but very apt drscription. It’s fun watching republicans tar and feather the apostates among them.

        5. james b. says:

          beating the right by how many posts?

      2. evcarnut says:

        Anon, I’m almost convinced that It doesn’t matter how you/we vote . When it’s all said & done., BIG MONEY HAS THE FINAL SAY….Remember The Bush Fiasco?

        1. Fool Cells says:

          it very much matters how you vote. Simply stop voting for Republicans and Democrats. Vote for freedom….Libertarian.

          1. super390 says:

            Vote Libertarian so we can return to the centuries when rich people could murder with impunity.

            (Yes, one libertarian idea is that prison must be replaced with monetary compensation, so that if a poor person murders a rich person, he has to pay compensation of millions, but if a rich person murders a poor person, he only has to pay thousands.)

            The only slavery that has ever existed in America is the private ownership of humans by other humans. The only feudalism that has ever existed is the domination of local government by the biggest landowners. At this very moment, private armies are destroying villages in poor countries at the demand of corporations that require their land and water to produce goods for the global capitalist economy.

            There is no mechanism in libertarian or free-market doctrine that guarantees any rights to a man without money. For 5000 years private property has always naturally concentrated in fewer and fewer hands unless the system was overthrown or collapsed. Our labor is useless as leverage because capitalists can go anywhere in the world to find the most desperate people but we can’t go anywhere in the world to find jobs. Labor markets are inherently many sellers/few buyers, thus inherently biased. All we have is our votes, so the more powerful corporations become, the more we have to use government just to hold our ground. Revolution or collapse, that’s all that can change.

            1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

              I have a lot of sympathy for small-l libertarian ideals. I’m in the same boat as the guy who said “I thought I was a Libertarian until I met a few.” (Sounds like a joke, but unfortunately it’s not.)

              That said, I have never heard a Libertarian argue for a return to weregild as compensation for murder, in preference to imprisonment or capital punishment. Weregild was a concept found in Danelaw, because their society was too primitive to have a judicial system. Weregild was a way to stop the sort of blood feud we still see today in tribal societies… all too common in the Mideast.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weregild

              Just because some nutjob that identifies himself as a “Libertarian” advocates that, doesn’t mean it’s a libertarian principle… or even a Libertarian one.

              And you can tell a scoundrel is making a fallacious argument when he takes an example of extreme fringe behavior and argues as if it’s part of the mainstream in whatever political faction he’s throwing mud at.

            2. evcarnut says:

              Very well Said Super390

          2. Get Real says:

            Yeah right, vote libertarian so you can support the….Koch heads! Who have all but taken over the Tea/Republican party.

          3. Epicurus says:

            The Kochs are libertarians because the “free market” allows them to keep polluting the air and water and heating the planet with impunity. The “free market” doesn’t provide accurate pricing for fossil fuels and the damages they do are borne by the public.

  3. rem says:

    It seems unlikely that they’ll be able to eliminate the tax credit before Tesla maxes it out anyway, but this will definitely be a loss for other manufacturers. GM should be increasing their lobbying efforts right about now.

  4. RexxSee says:

    “I think it will take refiners, petroleum producers and automakers by surprise.”
    Yeah sure! That’s why the cartel spend (b)millions in propaganda to counter them and only comply with lame ranged too expensive rare BEVs.

  5. jelloslug says:

    Hybrids managed to survive when the big tax credits dried up and EVs will also.

    1. storky says:

      For tax year 2001, the year in which I took delivery of my Prius, there was no tax credit, there was only the “Clean Fuel” deduction which amounted to an addition of $600 to my tax return.

  6. Alaa says:

    Will these brothers live to 2025?

    1. Aaron says:

      Nope. So they just don’t care about the long-term ramifications.

      1. evcarnut says:

        Aaron, By their action, You’d think they were planning to live forever. l o l

  7. Ash09 says:

    I don’t think it’ll work as well as they hope it will.

    Environmental groups can easily counter anything they come up with.

    And all you have to do is remind people of $4 a gallon gas. And that the Koch brothers want you to pay that amount, which is also why they’re fighting tooth and nail to paint EV’s in a bad light.

    1. storky says:

      Unfortunately, not having the funds to counter the BS will result in acceptance similar to Global Warming Denial and birtherism.

      1. sault says:

        The pro-pollution crowd doesn’t even need to present their argument well enough to be accepted. All they need to do is make people have doubt and their job is complete. And to win an election, all they have to do is get 50% + one vote. So as long as environmental and energy issues don’t rise to a top concern in voters’ minds, the status quo is preserved and they win.

  8. Ash09 says:

    Elon Musk also points out the subsidies fossil fuels get, which always seems to get overlooked, or at least isn’t as demonized the way alternative energy is.

    1. Alpha777 says:

      a 5.3 TRILLION subsidy.
      That’s a big number.
      So, are Koch’s Hypocrites or what?

      It’s also a typical Monopoly Move.
      They have a monopoly market, and instead of innovating or competing, they use POLITICS to win unjustified economic RENT.

      1. AlphaEdge says:

        So many knee jerk responses.

        Wonder how many drive SUV’s all the while exhibiting their outrage.

        The Saudi’s pumping oil like crazy, keeping the price of fuel low, is 100 times more harmful then what these guys are doing, and yet will generate 100 times less outrage. Go figure.

        1. super390 says:

          The Saudis aren’t Americans, the last that I heard. We can’t order them to do anything. They are a family that already owns a country so they have no loyalty but to themselves. We should be damn upset to see fellow citizens do likewise.

    2. AlphaEdge says:

      5.3 trillion in phony baloney money. Read the article, it’s the estimated cost, and has nothing to do with what Gov’ts are paying out.

      1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        The trillions of dollars the U.S. spends on its military to support our supply line of falsely “cheap” oil from the Mideast certainly isn’t “phony money”; it’s very real, hard-earned money, mostly from the 99% of us U.S. taxpayers who aren’t rich… because the super-rich, like the Koch Bros., have rigged the system so they pay far less than their fair share of taxes.

        But even that isn’t the greatest cost of the falsely “cheap” oil we get from the Mideast. The greatest cost is shown here:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wmOLicoCiw

      2. sault says:

        The effects of climate change like sea level rise, worse droughts and more intense storms do cost real money. Plus, exposure to pollution costs real money because we have to pay higher healthcare costs. GDP growth also gets cut due to lower worker productivity and premature death, all causing real economic growth to be lower. We’re making all these problems worse just to keep fossil fuels artificially cheap.

        1. super390 says:

          Right-wingers don’t believe that pollution causes harm, because if it did the bad publicity would magically cause consumers to boycott the polluters.

          Now look at the ownership chart on a modern multi-national. Look even at the ingredient list on a Twinkie. Each ingredient comes from a different corporation, each buried on a different bewildering ownership chart.

          The entire point of corporations is escaping liability for one’s actions.

          No one can tell who’s poisoning them. And we’ve been trained to be too complacent to change our addictions to punish the wicked. When Blue Bell finally got caught infecting people with its ice cream, all the sympathy here in Texas was with the corporation and the people it laid off, not the victims. People celebrated when the factory restarted and went right back to buying Blue Bell. They hate the victims for speaking out and never discuss restoring money to the FDA so that it has enough inspectors to even begin to cover all the corporations. Welcome to Texas, the home of free minds and free markets.

  9. AlanSqB says:

    When will we send the Koch terrorists to Gitmo?

    Honestly, the other mfrs deserve to lose the incentive. This “wait and see” approach is not what the incentive was designed for. It was put in place to reward innovation and early adopters, not those who let others do the hard work. GM, Nissan, Tesla and the few others that have been playing along and not just building compliance vehicles deserve the credit.

    If anything they should take any credits that were potentially slated for other “on the fence” mfrs and split them up between the ones who are in the game. Waiting for others to be innovative while you wait to swoop in when the risk is low should not be rewarded.

    1. sault says:

      I’d venture the tax credit was designed to specifically help the “wait and see” manufacturers. Given that the Ford, GM and at the time Daimler Chrysler were woefully behind in clean vehicle development, it allowed them to continue focusing on high-profit SUVs and trucks and come into the EV market later with a significant advantage. Since the enactment of the tax credit, Tesla popped up and became a major player while GM looks to be exceeding expectations a great deal with the Volt and Bolt. Ford and FCA (aka Chrysler) can now just by batteries from LG and license technology from other companies, stuff all that into a compliance car body and call it a day. They’ll be able to undercut rivals for a year or two given the ZEV / CAFE requirements they have to hit.

      1. GeorgeS says:

        sault said:
        Given that GM was woefully behind in clean vehicle development

        You have to be kidding with this comment. GM’s Bolt EV will be out before Tesla’s Model 3. Of all the manufacturers Tesla, Nissan and GM are the top 3.

        How can you fault that.

        1. sault says:

          I said at the time the tax credit was passed. This was back in 2007 if I remember correctly. Also, I did mention that GM was exceeding expectations, did I not?

  10. Nelson says:

    The lack of Oxygen to the brain from burning fossil fuels has caused the Koch brother to not be able to think clearly.

    NPNS! SBF!
    Volt#671

  11. Ray says:

    If the Koch brothers are advocating ellimnation of the tax subsidy for electric vehicles are they also advocating for ellimantion of the $40 billion subsidy provided to the oil & gas industry? I think not. Their hypocrisy is obvious.

    1. super390 says:

      It’s more than $40,000,000,000 if you include the expansion of US military commitments (“vital to our national security”) caused by oil. Not just the Middle East. Our navy prowls all the straits that supertankers pass through, we turned Diego Garcia into a natural aircraft carrier to dominate the Indian Ocean, and then there’s all those pipelines among the 130-plus countries where our military is involved.

  12. tftf says:

    What about selling that long-promised $35k car instead of blaming others?

    CEO Musk is his own worst enemy when it comes to dates and other (price) promises, even his most ardent supporters recognize that by now…

    “1. Take big deposits for a car you haven’t released.
    2. Delay the car once. Delay the car again.
    3. Hardly communicate…”

    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/62923-How-Tesla-Managed-to-Alienate-Their-Most-Loyal-Customers

    1. Anon says:

      Wow, you know very little about the infamous Koch Bros., and their history of ruining the planet with their filthy products, politics and lobbyists. How do the Koch Bros. attacks on EVs, have anything to do with your unrealistic grasp of Elon’s business practices?

      Do you also blame women for being raped?

      1. tftf says:

        So, Anon, are the Koch brothers the cause for the Model X and (likely) Model3 delays?

        Did the Koch brothers insist on Falcon Wing doors? LOL

        Did the Koch delay the Model3 once promised for 2014, then 2015, now ‘late 2017’?

        Musk’s recent communication strategy: Blame everyone else.

        PS: Did you even follow my link? That post was written by a Musk fan (S and X owner)…

        1. Tech01x says:

          Of course you misunderstand DaveT’s post, as you must.

        2. Alpha777 says:

          Hmmm.
          Did the Koch’s put any money at risk to innovate the auto market, or did Musk.

          Did Musk Run to the government like a little pussy and say protect my monopoly market position, or was that the Kochs?

        3. Big Solar says:

          who cares about points 1, 2 & 3? shit happens, better than bad ignition switches etc….. Tesla is a very young car maker and doing fairly well and offering something new and innovative which is more than any other car maker I know of (at that level)….

        4. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          tftf continued his eternal Tesla bashing campaign:

          “PS: Did you even follow my link? That post was written by a Musk fan…”

          So, your *cough* arguments *cough* are:

          1. Musk is “blaming others” when he tweets “Sigh”

          2. Musk is to blame for what a random Tesla car owner posts to the Internet

          What. A. Troll.

        5. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          tftf continued his anti-Tesla trolling:

          “Did the Koch delay the Model3 once promised for 2014, then 2015, now ‘late 2017’?”

          What’s the difference between a normal liar and a pathological liar? The latter is someone who lies even when he knows he will no longer be believed. So which sort of liar are you, tftf?

          A very short Google search yields the following:

          “According to Tesla chief designer Franz von Holzhausen, the new model could launch as early as 2015.”

          Hmmm… looks rather far from “promised for 2015” to me.

          http://www.dailytech.com/Quick+Note+Tesla+BMW+3Series+Competitor+Coming+in+2015/article25167.htm#sthash.mtex7Frl.dpuf

          You know, tftf, good liars occasionally mix some truth in with their lies. So you might want to wait until the Model ≡ is actually late before you start whining about it being late.

          1. Big Solar says:

            and who cares anyway, as long as its in the works.

      2. Just remember the Koch brothers do a lot of good with their wealth as well. I don’t agree with this particular initiative to discredit EVs, but I also believe they will be wasting their money as EVs will eventually overtake ICE cars as the dominate form of transport.
        Just because you disagree with how someone spends his money doesn’t mean you should demonize him.

        1. Anderlan says:

          If they give 5% of their income away I’ll eat a lemon and then an onion. I pray all the time that they’ll come around. But it’s very, very, very, very hard to be objective when you have a very, very, very, very large amount of money you’ve built up over a very long time in the equation.

          1. Anderlan says:

            Have you ever done something stupid with $5000 on the line? Imagine how stupid you’d be with 5 billion. We need to change the law soooo badly. In terms of the perversion of the financial system, unpenalized fossil carbon is at the same magnitude of market failure as slavery. The amount of money that is doing the wrong thing is the same in both cases.

            1. Fail Cells says:

              exactly. it is amazing how Democrats have super delegates for sale, totally disregarding the votes of the progressive drones, but the drones are too stupid to see how the Progressives really operate. They care nothing for america or anyone outside themselves and their elitest friends.

        2. Stimpy says:

          “Just remember the Koch brothers do a lot of good with their wealth as well”

          [citation needed]

          1. Ask, and ye shall receive. Koch brothers gave $25 Million to UNCF for college scholarships for minorities.

            https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/06/09/uncf-receives-25m-koch-brothers-prompting-praise-and-anger

            Oh, and let’s not forget that the businesses they started and they run employ tens of thousands of hard working Americans, thus supporting tens of thousands of diverse American families. White, minority, gay, straight, democrat, and republican.

            1. sault says:

              Sure, the Kochs started and run a lot of businesses. But as the biggest polluter in the USA, Koch Industries is also the most reliant on being able to offload the costs of their pollution onto everyone else while running to the bank with the profits. The giant subsidy that comes from not having to clean up or prevent their toxic emissions is astounding let alone the bill that comes from the healthcare costs, property damage and reduced economic output caused by their toxic emissions. And if you factor in the current and future costs of the climate change the Kochs’ many companies have / will cause, the entire enterprise would probably have a negative net present value. They’re not just using their own money to start and run their companies. They’re placing a burden on all of us and countless future generations in order to rake in the profits. In the end, they will probably be a net negative for the global economy, costing us more jobs then they ever created and more destroyed wealth than they ever created as well!

            2. jerryd says:

              RotP,
              Like Koch’s Georgia Pacific plywood I bought to make a boat and trailer from that had so little glue it bubbled up destroying all my work.
              Another they used so cheap inner ply that rotted very fast ruining that 34′ boat. In 45 yrs I’d never had those problems before Koch’s plywood.

            3. super390 says:

              But they also bankroll a political party whose high priests rage against there even BEING a United Negro College Fund because there’s nothing like that for the redneck kids. (And the corporate media refuses to bring up the huge number of wealthy White kids who benefit from family college funds and legacies that dwarf the UNCF.) So the Kochs keep the UNCF going as a basically trivial charity and then turn that White anger into votes to cut hundreds of billions of dollars from social programs and give more tax breaks to treasonous “job creators”. And maybe one day when too many Black students are protesting on campuses, the Kochs ring up the UNCF and threaten to cut off the money unless it gets those thugs back in line. That happens all the time.

              And that’s the truth about philanthropy.

            4. Fail Cells says:

              progressives can not handle reality. please do not bring facts into the discussion

            5. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

              Rightofthepeople said:

              “…let’s not forget that the businesses they started and they run employ tens of thousands of hard working Americans…”

              Yeah, but only because they haven’t yet figured out how to line their own pockets with billions without hiring a lot of people to make money for them.

              They are certainly trying hard to pay their employees as little as possible, as their indefatigable union-busting activism and funding shows!

              http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/22/the-next-phase-of-the-koch-brothers-war-on-unions.html

              And the Koch Bros. are certainly not adverse to exporting American jobs overseas when it will help them keep more of their money for themselves, instead of paying a fair wage. See:

              “Breaking: Koch Industries’ Outsourcing and Job Loss”

              https://americanbridgepac.org/new-report-koch-industries-outsourcing-and-job-loss/

              Honestly, it turns my stomach to see people with obscene levels of wealth being lauded as “job creators”, as if somehow that makes them better than anybody else, just because they are forced to employ people to create wealth for them, while going to great lengths to make sure they cut jobs wherever they can, and share as little of that wealth as they can get away with.

              Oh, and how did the Koch Bros. get rich in the first place? They made their first millions the old-fashioned way: They inherited it. So it’s hardly a surprise they are so callous toward hard-working middle class Americans, let alone the working poor. They have no experience with what it’s like to actually need anything.

        3. G2 says:

          Rightofthepeople
          Just what good have the Koch bros done? Don’t forget to mention buying up 4500sq km of Tar Sands in Alberta and funding Canada’s rabid right to reverse environmental legislation.

          1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

            G2 asked:

            “Just what good have the Koch bros done?”

            Well, they do fund a lot of programs on PBS that are worth watching. Of course, that’s just an attempt to create some good will to distract from how they have helped subvert the stock market, the financial system, and tax system to favor the super-rich, and have helped turn America from a democracy into a kleptocracy.

            But hey, it’s something. Sorta like how Hitler hung some nice wallpaper in his day.

        4. Alpha777 says:

          Spending 100 Million a year Buying off Republican candidates isn’t charity, OR IS IT!

        5. super390 says:

          You mean like the way right-wingers relentlessly smear George Soros as a communist because he throws some money at safe corporate Democrats? Their smear this year is calling him a Nazi collaborator because he survived the Holocaust as a Jewish teenager.

          You’re making a joke. The rich spend their political money to build up the most right-wing extremists within state and local GOP primaries, and then buy off the surviving centrist Democrats when needed. All of that is to buy themselves free rein, not socialism. Not minding what the rich do with their money is an overwhelmingly right-wing act and it’s obvious that you’d freak out if that really changed.

      3. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        tftf knows he’s posting B.S. He doesn’t care about Truth. He’s just here to promote his anti-Tesla short-seller position.

        However, sometimes his posts do contain unintentional humor. Like accusing Elon Musk of hardly communicating! Hmmmm… no, one of Elon’s faults is tweeting or saying a lot more than he should.

        So we should just laugh at the troll who calls himself “tftf”.

        1. tftf says:

          Accusing? Me?

          Do you know what a quote is?

          I quoted an angry Tesla owner verbatim, follow the link I provided to the Tesla forum and see the entire post.

          When loyal owners and early adopters are fed up after being lied to during /after the Model X launch, something is wrong at Tesla – both on the engineering and communication side of things.

          The high-volume Model3 launch will be the next disaster if Tesla follows the same course.

          1. Get Real says:

            And once again tftf, your cherry-picked, incessant, whiney FUD doesn’t hold up to the FACT that the Model S customer satisfaction ratings have been and continue to be the highest in history.

            And I will note again that you have failed to disclose that you are short on Tesla and therefore have a monetary bias to promote your trolling FUD.

          2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

            tftf asked:

            “Do you know what a quote is?”

            Yup. For example, let me quote a bit of what you posted above:

            “Musk’s recent communication strategy: Blame everyone else.”

            You weren’t quoting anyone there, dude. You asserted that as your own opinion, so don’t try to weasel out of it by blaming somebody else for what you wrote.

            And this in a comment about an article which quoted Musk tweeting, simply “Sigh”. Kinda hard to read that as Musk “blaming” anyone by saying “Sigh”. But then, logic, facts, and truth never stop you from making wildly untruthful assertions, do they?

            What about you, tftf? Do you know what is meant by “The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”?

            You have yet to demonstrate you do. You might try that some time, just for variety.

            1. tftf says:

              I quoted from here, NOT from the tweet:

              http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/62923-How-Tesla-Managed-to-Alienate-Their-Most-Loyal-Customers

              Maybe you should read my posts before complaining?

              1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

                Yes, you originally quoted that, and then in a later post you included a partial paraphrase as part of your own remarks. Not a quote… just as I said above.

                And now you’re pretending you didn’t. You really are a compulsive liar, aren’t you? Anybody can scroll up and see what you actually posted.

    2. Tech01x says:

      Model 3 is still on time, which still requires the Gigafactory which is still on time.

      1. tftf says:

        We will see late next year about the car launch and that “Gigafactory” that’s actually just a pilot plant 14% of the total size. As I said before:

        Talking/announcing elephants yet building mice only.

        Done here.

        1. Big Solar says:

          Who gives a s*** if its late? Big friggin deal, better that than countless other faults by our other “American” automakers.

    3. alain says:

      a little prozace is excellent for mental health .this is the only guy to have started
      a new car company in the last 50 years that didn’t last only blink of an eye ,would love to see your life time accomplissement.if your not doing better shut up ,he works more in a week than the average person for sure .

    4. Rich says:

      Your post is misdirection, plain and simple. Oil troll, move along.

      1. Tech01x says:

        Nah, tftf is merely a TSLA bear… he is shorting the stock or bought puts or both.

      2. tftf says:

        “Oil troll”

        You are not familiar with any of my blog posts or holdings.

        I invest(ed) in many alternative energy stocks for well over a decade.

        And precisely because of that I see the many perils and empty promises of Elon Musk and public companies he is involved in (namely TSLA and SCTY).

        Cut trough the hype, look at the numbers and maybe you will find out one day.

        1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

          If one is to learn about Tesla or SolarCity, it certainly won’t be from reading the short-seller half-truths and lies in your comments here, or in your blog posts on Seeking Alpha.

          1. tftf says:

            Specifics please.

            I lay out my arguments in great detail in my blog posts and articles, replies like ‘FUD’ or ‘half-truth’ aren’t convincing.

            1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

              I challenge you to give just one example of your Tesla bashing assertions which is actually true. Not half-true; something that’s actually the Truth.

              Just one.

    5. Get Real says:

      Another lame attempt by tftf to try and “flip the script” back on Tesla to support his short-selling position that he constantly forgets to mention when he is spreading his FUD.

      If Tesla has “alienated” their loyal customers then how is it that the Model S still has the best customer satisfaction ratings of any car in history???

      1. jerryd says:

        The S jumped 61% last yr while it’s competition dropped production, picked up be Tesla.
        tftf is an anti Tesla troll/shorter to be shown that and ignored.

        1. tftf says:

          And how is Tesla’s stock doing lately, jerryd? A company can sell more and still be overvalued. That’s a bubble.

          Look what Cisco and Amazon stock did in the year 2000 and the deacde thereafter – everybody knew the Internet was gong to be big back in 2000 and yet valuations didn’t make sense, not even for category leaders like Amazon or Cisdo. People who bought these shares in the bubble sat on losses for over a decade.

          Blaming the Kochs or anyone else is easy. If Tesla can build a great long-range EV at $35k by 2017 AND make a healthy profit (I highly doubt that’s possible) consumers will buy it – with or without a Koch or other third-party campaign.

          Musk and Tesla more than enough powerful allies like investment banks who write phony reports with hiked price targets (2x overnight) before a capital round for Tesla. It happened in 2014 and 2015.

          But of course people at Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs are saints and analyst reports truly independent (I had to laugh while writing this).

          If you opened your eyes you would see that every side has its lobbyists – and Wall Street is in on the game to prop up stocks in need of capital. As we all know or at least should know TSLA and SCTY are very good customers (fresh cash is a drug for both companies in their current stage and Wall Street is the dealer).

          1. Get Real says:

            Your trolling FUD posts are getting really old tftf. Yes Tesla stock is down from its high, largely because the entire market is down.

            However, the fundamentals of Tesla’s business of making compelling EVs is strong: They have had incredibly amazing success with their first mass-produced car as their marketshare and awards to many to list show.
            They have no entered the lucrative and fast-growing SUV market and X sales and production will grow rapidly.
            They are on the verge of showing and taking reservations for the Model 3 and if this car is as compelling in its segment as the S & X are its going to be game over for your shorts.
            And finally, the Giga is on schedule and it will enable them to equip hundreds of thousands of Model 3s which the other legacy OEMs will not be able to match in either numbers or in battery prices.

            BTW, I don’t listen to the vampire squids of wall street anymore then I listen to your lame FUD and I hope the next president takes on wall street and all financial gamblers/manipulators for the good of our country.

            PS, I still see that you have yet to disclose here your short position on TESLA which is why you are sliming all these threads.

          2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

            tftf continued his incessant anti-Tesla trolling:

            “Musk and Tesla more than enough powerful allies like investment banks who write phony reports with hiked price targets (2x overnight) before a capital round for Tesla. It happened in 2014 and 2015.”

            Well, if you honestly believe that happened, then by all means report them to the SEC. Since your rather obvious agenda is to drive down the price of Tesla’s stock as far as possible, that should fit with your short-selling goal nicely. And as the *cough* honest *cough* investor you are, it’s your duty, isn’t it?

            Wait, what? The SEC doesn’t agree with that Tesla basher claim? In fact, they think it’s as phony as a three-dollar bill?

            Gosh, imagine my lack of surprise! 😀

            1. tftf says:

              You obviously have no clue about investing and Wall Street mechanisms, PP aka Lensman (why do you keep changing avatar names?).

              But keep dreaming about EEStor and similar green bubbles…

  13. Jim Thompson says:

    This is such incredible horse manure it is hard to know where to start. You might start with the obvious bias of the author which is blatantly displayed in the caricatures of the brothers. You might also look at the “anonymous sources”. Follow up with the falsehood that the Kochs have “spent millions to fight alternative energy”. Seriously? I challenge anyone to source a single instance of that. “Anonymous sources” excepted.

    The actual truth of this matter (for those that care to do the research) is that the Kochs have been fighting for years to get government subsidies to ALL industries, including their own, stopped. They have fought against their own interests in this regard, trying to end subsidies for ethanol, one of their biggest businesses.

    Contrary to popular belief, oil companies get no cash subsidies, only tax deductions for actual expenses, as does every other industry. As an example, Exxon-Mobile paid out 14% of gross profit for 2014 in taxes and over 35% of earnings. Their profit margin was 6.5% vs 7.3% for all industries. Google turned 21.8%.

    The Kochs are idealists and believe that NO business can seek favor from Washington and the kind of “crony capitalism” those favors lead to are destructive to the economy. You may or may not agree but theirs is not a fight against alternative energy, it is a fight against government favoritism. This article is just a hatchet job by those who wish to live on the government’s dole.

    1. +1. Oh heck who am I kidding, plus infinite!

      1. scott franco says:

        Holy sh**, there are sane people here after all……

        1. SparkEV says:

          Sane? I don’t think idealistic foolishness is sane. Ideally, socialism would have us all singing kumbaya by campfire, too.

          Realistically, taxes and complexity will only go up, and they won’t give you money back for not taking the subsidy, no matter how idealistic one claim to be.

          Then rational self interest is to take as much back from the government as you can. Unless, of course, you like what the government is doing with your tax money, in which case you should give more taxes than what they ask.

          1. GeorgeS says:

            quite frankly I think it is good that we have R of P and Scott here as EV advocates. We need to convince more republicans that EV are good……not alienate them with name calling (not by you but others).

            We would be better off trying to get the word out to conservatives than just trying to alienate them.

            1. SparkEV says:

              I’m glad they’re here voicing their POV. I don’t call them names, but I disagree what they write as being foolish idealism. If they’re really Republicans (or Libertarians), why do they want to give even more money to the government? EV subsidy is a way to get some tax money back, in effect lower their taxes, in effect shrink the government.

              I’m probably more “right wing” than most here, including those two. I’m just pragmatic about the situation than thinking we can all sit around the campfire and sing Kumbaya.

    2. Jim Thompson says:

      I need to add that I have a Nissan Leaf and am looking forward to buying or leasing a Tesla Model 3. I did NOT get the $7500 Federal tax credit, nor any state credit for the Leaf and won’t for the Model 3 either.

      1. Alpha777 says:

        If you leased, then you should have got a $7500 tax credit, as part of the lease.

    3. Aaron says:

      Whether it is a tax subsidy or a cash subsidy, the oil companies are getting upwards of $5 TRILLION in subsidies (IMF’s stats).

      If the Koch brothers are looking for equal treatment, why are they spending tens of millions of dollars lobbying and “contributing” to Washington (especially the Republican party)? They are looking for favor — not equal treatment — and are successfully buying it.

      1. Josh says:

        You need to read the IMF study/summary before making comments like this. More than half of that number is medical expenses caused by pollution. Other line items are $42 per ton of carbon emitted, loss productivity due to traffic and vehicle accidents. (not sure how EVs fix traffic and accidents…ICEs could also self drive)

        As far as direct subsidy: “The direct subsidising of fuel for consumers, by government discounts on diesel and other fuels, account for just 6% of the IMF’s total.”

        I am not saying that disagree with the intent of the IMFs report, but I image the $5 trillion number will be widely misused by people that only read the headline and make assumptions.

        1. Josh says:

          Also the IMF study was global, not US.

        2. Spec9 says:

          Yeah, so? Are you saying air pollution is not real? Are you saying climate change is not real?

    4. SparkEV says:

      If Koch are anti-subsidy idealists, I don’t see them spending $10 million in trying to stop fossil fuel subsidy that’s been around for decades. Fact is, they only want to cut subsidy for stuff they don’t like, even if that’s tiny fraction of subsidy for stuff they like.

      And if you didn’t take the federal tax credit, what are you, some kind of nut who likes more taxes and love what the government does with tax money? If you leased, did you write out a check to government for $7500? Lease gives you tax credit via indirect means.

    5. pjwood1 says:

      “…the Kochs have been fighting for years to get government subsidies to ALL industries, including their own, stopped.”

      A problem with this, Jim, is how your thinking about subsidies is narrowed to government. I like capitalists who compete, not ones that seek to anchor our transportation sector to a single fuel source. When you have enough capital to be anti-competitive, you’re subsidized.

      Before pollution is even considered, $2 gallon gas can’t hold a candle to the 1,000 cubic feet of natural gas those $2 can also buy. Go ahead, mark it up, through a power plant. Try coal, nuclear, solar, wind and you’ll see what the Kochs are worried about. Their brand isn’t Libertarian, or Republican. It’s Capitalism, in the worst way.

      Enjoy your car.

      1. SparkEV says:

        You misspelled it. It’s “crapitalism”

      2. evcarnut says:

        Money Greed ,is the “worst Addiction” of All Addictions! ,0nly the Richest of the Rich “are afflicted” by this un-treatable, and incurable Disease.. Those will need Divine intervention., But, By then, it may be Too late for them,& everyone Else concerned….

    6. El duque says:

      This is a complete lie. You are as much to blame as they are by spreading this nonsense.

      1. Get Real says:

        Well William, this is what are present political system has regressed to. The Koch heads are going on PR offensives/lying fests with conservative media and people like you believe it!

        The fact that the Kochs are some of the biggest spenders in politics belies his lies that he wants to fight for a level playing field or that he is a champion for the poor:

        http://www.prwatch.org/news/2015/11/12966/kochs-morning-joe

        http://www.prwatch.org/news/2015/10/12947/koch-CBS-darkmoney-not-reported

        http://www.prwatch.org/news/2014/07/12541/koch-political-spending

        http://www.prwatch.org/news/2015/12/13002/koch-criminal-justice-reform-trojan-horse

        http://www.prwatch.org/news/2016/02/13030/koch-fueled-groups-launch-offensive-against-wv-working-families

    7. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      Jim Thompson said:

      “You may or may not agree but theirs is not a fight against alternative energy, it is a fight against government favoritism.”

      Wow, that’s one of the worst typos I’ve ever seen! You meant “…a fight to create government favoritism.”

      The Koch Bros. have spearheaded the very successful campaign, over the past 30 years, to turn the government of the USA from one “of the people, by the people, and for the people” into a government of the career bureaucrats, by the lobbyists, and for the super-rich. That’s why the vast majority of new wealth now goes to those already very rich, and it’s why the middle class is fast disappearing to merge with the poor.

      The Declaration of Independence says, in part: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights…”

      The Koch Bros. have been very successful in rewriting this to read “…that all men are created equal, except ‘job creators’ are more equal than others; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain Rights, which the very rich have the power to take away…”

      It’s rather ironic that the very rich, and the not-so-rich Tea Party adherents who have been brainwashed into believing their propaganda, whine about “class warfare”. Yeah, we’ve had class warfare going on for the past 30 years. And the super-rich have won the war quite handily. The USA now has more income disparity than has existed at any time since the days of the Rail Barons.

      All hail the new Robber Barons: The Koch Brothers! Form line to the Right… the hard Right… and turn out your pockets, please. Please cooperate with making sure they can take what little you have left.

    8. Nix says:

      The amount of taxes that the oil industry claims to pay is frankly quite bogus.

      Because much of what they claim to be paying in “taxes” are actually royalties or royalties in disguise as taxes to actually buy the crude oil that belongs to various federal, state, and international gov’t entities who are the actual owners of that crude oil.

      Here is how it works. When an oil company pays a private individual for oil they extract on that land, lets say they pay them $1,000 for X amount of oil. Everybody understands they are buying oil from the owner, and they aren’t paying a tax.

      Now let’s look at when they buy that same $1,000 dollars of oil from a foreign nation like Saudi Arabia. They are still paying the same $1,000 for the same X amount of oil. But Saudi Arabia can up to 85% of that same $1,000 dollars as a “tax”. It really isn’t a tax. It is just the oil companies paying the owner for the crude oil they take.

      But how the oil companies handle each of these $1000 dollar payments for crude oil are completely different.

      For the private contract, the $1000 dollars is counted as an expense against income along with other expenses. So if they have another $500 in expenses along with the $1000 dollars, that is a total of $1500 in expenses. If they sell that oil for $1600, then they have a taxable income of $100 on that oil, and would owe up to $35 dollars of tax.

      On the other hand, when they pay $450 in taxes on $1000 in oil, and $550 in direct payments, plus the same $500 in additional expenses, their total expenses are $1050, (The $450 in taxes to Saudi Arabia are not booked as an expense — see why later).

      Sell that oil for the same $1600, and the taxable income is $1600 minus $1050 == $550 dollars. They could owe up to $200 dollars in US taxes on that oil. But they also get a US Federal tax credit EQUAL to the $450 they paid Saudi Arabia in “taxes”. So the entire transaction would generate a net $250 dollar tax CREDIT for the oil company, reducing how much they pay the US in taxes. (That’s where the subsidy comes in — We are essentially paying them to buy oil from Saudi Arabia by giving them a dollar for dollar tax credit to reduce their US taxes).

      Meanwhile, the oil company publicly produces a document saying they paid $450 in taxes on that $1600 in oil they sold. Making it look like they are paying huge amounts of taxes.

      But we all know better. They are just buying oil from another party. They could structure the agreement to be $1000 in direct payment to Saudi Arabia, with zero taxes, or $500 dollars in direct payment plus another $500 in taxes, it doesn’t matter. The money is still paid to Saudi Arabia, and in the end they are just paying $1000 dollars to purchase X amount of oil.

      The difference is that they get such a preferential tax treatment structuring it this way, that they WANT to pay for their oil as a “tax” instead of as a direct payment for the oil itself.

  14. Aaron says:

    The Koch brothers have a lot of money. They need to diversify. One of the best ways to do this is to get a foothold in alternative energy technologies. Keep their oil investments — in fact, expand on them and get more coal-powered plants to convert to natural gas. A win-win!

    Attacking what is very likely to be a mainstream technology (EVs) is a very, very short-sighted approach. I believe that anyone can change their viewpoint, and it’s time the Kochs expand theirs. With the right planning, they can greatly profit from these alternative energy sources, rather than fighting them.

    1. Rich says:

      This isn’t about making profit or they would own a large portion of the green investments. This is about power and ego. The Koch brothers have decided that renewable energy shouldn’t be an option and are willing to spend vast amounts of money to impose their will on the people of this nation.
      These trolls that popped into this thread are evidence the Koch brothers are paying to manipulate the argument at all levels.

      1. “These trolls that popped into this thread…”

        So let me get this straight. I have been reading articles on insideevs for over a year, started just after I got my Leaf. I have commented on many articles, agreed with some people and disagreed with others. But now that I make a comment on this particular article that happens to be contrary to your world view and your political ideology, I am a troll.

        Nice. Way to be open minded to the opinions of others.

        1. William says:

          Thanks for the fresh air. Got my Leaf a few month back. Keep the objectivity coming. There are a lot of different interests coming from more than a few different directions.

      2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        Rich said:

        “These trolls that popped into this thread…”

        This type of thing is what’s wrong with American public discourse today. We should be able to voice opinions without calling each other names. Everybody hates the gridlock in Congress; well, let’s not imitate their behavior. Let’s not treat someone as an enemy just because we disagree with their politics.

        There are no trolls here, except the one using this comment thread to promote his anti-Tesla short seller position.

        “If I have my opinion about something, you have your opinion about something, we don’t have to fight over it. And we can have a conversation. We can also disagree without being disagreeable, and we can just disagree, which is fine. It doesn’t mean that I don’t like you, or you don’t like me. We just disagree.” — Don Lemon

  15. SparkEV says:

    Let me get this straight. Fossil fuel subsidy going to big business is ok, but EV subsidy going to individuals is not ok? Sigh indeed!

  16. Get Real says:

    Yes, such is the state of the corporate conservative viewpoint today.

  17. Jeff N says:

    May I recommend the following book by well-known author Jane Mayer published last month:

    Dark Money: The Hidden History of the Billionaires Behind the Rise of the Radical Right

  18. GrokGrok says:

    As battery costs drop, tax credits will be far less important anyway, which is kind of the point of the phaseout after 200,000 vehicles. Rising fuel economy standards will push car manufacturers toward hybrids, PHEVs and EVs in coming years. Once a good chunk of the public drives electric, there’s no turning back, as they’ll want more, and love the fact they’re not having to fill up constantly. Well off tree huggers drive Teslas, but so do lots of people who just love driving a great car.

    In a way, the Kochs’ move is a testament to the fact that there is strong momentum toward vehicle electrification, else they wouldn’t feel the need to stomp on it. However, it’s likely to be just as effective as if Kodak had tried to kill digital cameras.

    1. ffbj says:

      Reasonable.

  19. Ian says:

    You guys are funny.

  20. scott franco says:

    The EV subsidy should be phased out, and natural gas (and thus fracking) is a good thing for america.

    NG has done more to cut down on pollution than all the wind and solar farms in the world.

    1. Lindsay Patten says:

      Abstract

      The global burden of atmospheric methane has been increasing over the past decade but the causes are not well understood. National inventory estimates from the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) indicate no significant trend in US anthropogenic methane emissions from 2002 to present. Here we use satellite retrievals and surface observations of atmospheric methane to suggest that US methane emissions have increased by more than 30% over the 2002–2014 period. The trend is largest in the central part of the country but we cannot readily attribute it to any specific source type. This large increase in US methane emissions could account for 30–60% of the global growth of atmospheric methane seen in the past decade.
      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/2016GL067987/abstract

    2. storky says:

      After 110 days, the Porter Ranch Methane leak is finally capped. No, your assertion is wrong.

      1. ffbj says:

        Right, producing something like 1/4 of all the methane pollution in CA, which is a lot, for a year. NG facilities leak prolifically. Oil drillers flare off millions of lbs of NG a year further contributing to global warming.

        1. ffbj says:

          I would conjecture that the anti-solar campaign, which has now established a beach-head, will continue in the Republican controlled Western U.S. Not really anything new, just ringing the bell, ringing out warning. Cause when the stacked deck of ‘Wild Bill’ Buffet deep-pockets and entrenched utility regulated by a “favorable” regulatory body, (the sheriff in league with outlaw). You have the fight against solar in a nutshell, and solar in the West may just be holdin’ aces and eights. (worse case scenario).

          The anti-solar crowd, now think they have a precedent, a victory, and in all probability, a template for how to continue their campaign against the democratization of power production in their domains. Monopolies don’t play that.
          Monopolies that have state legislatures in their pockets, make you pay to play, so take that, all you would be and even former solar installing homeowners.

          Rant: #4

        2. scott franco says:

          Absolutely, lets follow germany, pronounce solar is the way forward, while quietly moving back to coal.

          Real smart.

          1. Bill Howland says:

            Germany has to do something since they’ve committed to getting rid of Nuclear Power as soon as reasonably possible.

            As far as coal goes, lately I’ve read that the head of the Seminole Power cooperative in Northeast Florida (third largest power producer in the state), is in a big bind.

            When Florida was growing in the early 80’s, they wanted actually to build other than a coal plant. They needed more electricity for their growing subscriber base.

            A 1978 Federal Law prohibited them from building a new plant using either oil or natural gas. So, in the early 80’s they built a 600 odd megawatt coal plant since it was the only thing that satisfied federal law at the time. In the interim they have faithfully put in necessary scrubbers/ made arrangements with a Gypsum board factory to fully utilize all of the plant’s waste, and in general even ‘opponents’ say they have a very ‘clean’ plant, as Coal plants go.

            The 1978 Federal Law has long since been recinded.

            They had a 13% stake in the Crystal River Nuclear plant, but due to a botched uprating, this plant has been closed, and since they were only a prospective power consumer of the plant, its a 13 % loss of power due to no fault of their own.

            So they have a real connundrum. They’re investing in a 2 MW solar project, but that only makes enough power for a Super-Wallmart.

            80% of their electricity comes from this coal plant, which they were effectively FORCED by the federal gov’t at the time to build. Now, they still owe money on the improvements, and may be forced to shut down the plant 2 or 3 decades before its time.

            Of course, due to the similar short-sighted governmental actions, my property taxes will skyrocket when the coal plant in my town closes next month. The vast majority of people in my town want the plant to continue operation, for obvious reasons.

            I’m sure everyone will say the overriding needs of the ‘earth’ is that this plant should be shut down. Too bad their customers electricity prices will more than double.

            Of course, many other places in the US pay unbelievably ridiculous prices for electricity, and no one seems to care that it is the poorest people who have to suffer the most.

            As far as the ‘earth’ goes, in any event its not going to matter, since China and India are both planning over the next decade to build a combined over 1,000 GW (thats equivalent to 500 Indian Point Nuclear stations worth) of coal-fired power plants, in addition to the huge investments in renewables and Nuclear Power.

            So what they do in florida isn’t going to make any difference as far as the ‘earth’ is concerned.

    3. super390 says:

      Oklahoma being destroyed by earthquakes is good for pollution?

  21. Get Real says:

    I’m going to have to call B.S. on your assertion scott, it has been well established that fracked gas is overall NOT good for the environment, just read the 15 separate studies listed at the end of this link:

    http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/02/17/3750240/methane-leaks-erase-climate-fracked-gas/

    1. Michael Will says:

      +1 fracking has to stop

  22. ffbj says:

    The Kochs are crooks in my book.
    They have bevy of lawyers and a legion of
    lobbyists, that protect them and try to bribe lawmakers with contributions.
    Spreading FUD is their stock and trade.

    They, people like them, and the bought and paid for politicians who support them, are what is really wrong with this country.

    John Galt was not a hero, he was a villain.

  23. John says:

    These guys are dinosaurs. Rich dinosaurs, but dinosaurs nonetheless. Their influence may screw up things for the short term, or it may not, depending on which way the political winds blow. But it’s nearly certain that in a generation or less their influence will be gone. Almost no one under 30, or even 40, is buying into what the Koch’s believe or what they are doing.

    1. Get Real says:

      While I agree that the Koch heads are dinosaurs and their toxic idealogy will die with them and their money it doesn’t change the fact that climate pollution happening now will persist for decades and in the case of methane, hundreds of years.

      So every well-funded effort by the Kochs and their Fossil Fool buddies to pollute and delay the future of alt-energy/EVs (not to mention to further corrupt our political system) will continue to haunt our society and the entire earth for that matter long after they are thankfully dead.

    2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      John said:

      “…it’s nearly certain that in a generation or less their influence will be gone.”

      I wish I could believe it will disappear that fast. But the way the Koch Bros. and other super-rich lobbyists have rigged the financial system, the tax system, and the stock market to favor them, won’t disappear just because those two brothers pass away.

      Heck, they’ve even spread their influence to the Supreme Court; it’s especially noticeable in the Citizens United decision. Really; money is “speech”? That’s the worst decision since the Supreme Court established the fiction of a corporate “person”!

      It’s going to take many years, very probably decades, of fierce political activism to reverse the way the super-rich have rigged American laws, financial regulations, and the tax code to funnel the overwhelming majority of new wealth into their own pockets.

      It may even take a Constitutional amendment or two, to reverse the Citizens United decision, restoring some degree of sanity by creating a clear legal distinction between speech and money.

  24. goaterguy says:

    So, this is proof that electric cars are starting to make big oil companies uncomfortable. Nice.

    1. Get Real says:

      Yes, and Elon Musk/Tesla have played a very outsize role in this progress.

  25. Nix says:

    What would the sales numbers be if one political party gets their way in the Congress and Presidency and they do the following (all of which they have talked about doing or already done in some states):

    1) Kill the Federal EV tax incentive
    2) Kill the Federal Solar tax incentive
    3) Re-write “Clean Air Act Section 209 – State Standards” to deny California’s waiver that currently allows CA to write their own emissions standards, effectively killing CARB and all of the ZEV credit system.
    http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/climate/ca-waiver.htm
    4) Kill the CAFE laws requiring better fleet MPG. Eliminate CAFE completely, along with window stickers and EPA MPG ratings.
    5) Put a punitively high federal “gas tax”/highway tax on electric vehicles, similar to what they did to Solar in Nevada, making them by far more expensive to operate than gas cars.
    6) Kill state incentives, like they did in Georgia.
    7) Repeat what they did in Nevada to solar, adding fees to make it more expensive than grid electricity in all the major solar install states.
    8) Introduce excessive fees for home charging your car, which they would justify as “heavy use” fees, like they got passed in Colorado where they have a massively punitive rate for electricity above a certain level each month.

    Who would be left selling EV’s and PHEV’s in the US after that? My guess is that Aston Martin, Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Chrysler, Fiat, Ford, Honda, Hyundai, Infiniti, Jaguar, Kia, Mazda, Mercedes, Mini, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Porsche, Subaru, Toyota, Volvo, and VW would all cancel plans for new models, and let existing model sales die off in the US as they all withdrew to focus in other markets like Europe and Asia. Leaving Tesla and possibly Chevy to try and fight against the tides in hopes that they could keep their line of electric cars afloat long enough for one of these 10X battery miracles, or a more friendly administration to undo the damage.

    Total new car sales to die-hards willing to pay much, much more to not buy a gas car? 10K max. Everybody else who loves green cars cannibalizes cheap used EV sales, as used EV and PHEV prices drop like a stone.

    We’ve already heard from the oil industry that the only way out of the economic slump in the oil industry is to burn through the large oil inventories. So we already know the intentions of the big dollar corporate donors are — to get people to burn more oil.

    (Note to posters who say “Hey, I’m a member of that party, and I wouldn’t do that”! — Well, the rest of your party would despite your protests, as they did in Nevada and you didn’t stop them.)

    1. Nix says:

      I forgot putting punitive state registration fees on EV’s disguised as “road tax” that are so high that they exceed what even the worst gas guzzling SUV would pay in state gas taxes. That’s been done too.

      I get a lot of people who are dismissive of these posts when I make them, but I’m not doing anything but reposting things that one party has already sued for, legislated, proposed, or actually enacted in at least one state.

      1. Jay Cole says:

        Thankfully, we don’t have a one world government, and plug-ins aren’t a one region phenomenon anymore … with the North America currently being just the 3rd largest region.

        So “worst case” isn’t the same as it would have been in say, ~2008. Cat is pretty much out of the bag now.

        /would still suck though to see the US stance on alternative transportation tech be altered for the worse…regardless of a person’s political affiliation

        1. Nix says:

          Actually, the worst case is that they repeat what they did with solar in Nevada, where they made it so expensive to own solar, that people who installed solar are now greatly regretting it.

          There is absolutely nothing to stop them from doing the same thing to EV’s in the United States. Make the penalties for owning EV’s, and charging EV’s, and owning solar so harsh that it punishes people who already own EV’s.

          1. ffbj says:

            That is the general idea with current attacks.
            Always screaming about states rights has, to my mind, been mostly a way of maintaining the status quo, making effecting change more difficult. Various associations and businesses, and even regulated utilities, come together to use their political power and influence to prevent, or even turn back progressive initiatives.

          2. zzzzzzzzzz says:

            What they did in Nevada was that they removed excessive subsidies for net-metering solar as it was going out of control and let it swim on its own. You are so used to subsidies that imagine it is normal. It is not normal, money don’t grow on trees, somebody needs to earn it and pay taxes to make these subsidies to work. Netmetering is beneficial to the grid as far as there is small amount of people using it, but not when you have whole crowd doing the same.

            The EV scenario you described is a bit paranoid and blown out of proportion. Some of it may happen, but technology is going to be developed with or without US anyway and it should be able to swim on its own without help. If you suggest it can’t swim without help, you are discarding the technology as hopeless and I don’t agree with it.

            1. Nix says:

              zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

              You have no idea what happened in Nevada if you think it was just about net metering.

              What is paranoid about simply putting together a list of things that one party has ALREADY done, sued to do, or proposed legislation to do? Please point out any one of those items you think is NOT a factual description of actual policies.

              And this isn’t just about cutting tax incentives. Only 3 of the 9 items I listed are about tax incentives that keep EV’s swimming. The other 6 are all about pushing them underwater in order to drown them, while continuing all of the subsidies for fossil fuels.

  26. Loboc says:

    The subject resolution will do nothing to restrict the Chinese government from promoting ‘new energy’ vehicles in their own country.

    U.S. companies no longer have much stake in manufacturing or where said manufacturing happens.

    Influencing Republicans (or Democrats) is a useless waste of time and money. Hopelessly deadlocked for a decade already. The most any new regime can do is just let existing EV subsidies time out.

    1. ffbj says:

      I don’t agree. For one corporations would not be people, along with various other questionable decisions by the SC of late, which would not have occurred without the stacking of the court with pro right-wing such as the late Scalia.

      Now they are afraid they will lose their majority on the court, the great defenders of the constitution, give me a break.

      Your view has some support in that as long as a President, the executive, of an opposing party than the Congress, the legislative, then little will get done. Which at times is just better.

      You forgot the 3rd branch of government, the judicial, which cannot be slighted. They determined the winner of an election to a the candidate favored by them.

      1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

        The Judicial Branch is being slighted right now, with a court evenly split between “liberal” and “conservative” (altho some much more moderate than others), coupled with every single GOP presidential hopeful and all too many of the GOP in Congress, who are all vowing that they’ll never, ever affirm a Supreme Court nominee by the President unless he’s an extreme conservative, as Justice Scalia was. Even worse, they’re actually claiming — directly contrary to what is clearly written in the Constitution — that the President doesn’t have the “right” to nominate anyone. In actuality, as anyone who’s ever read the Constitution should know, it’s not merely the President’s right, it’s his responsibility!

        I think many or perhaps even most in Congress shouldn’t merely be fired; they should be tarred and feathered, and run out of town on a rail! Better yet, run out of the entire country.

  27. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

    Let’s look at the positive side of this: If the Koch Bros. are willing to spend a million dollars slamming EVs, then that’s a sign that the EV revolution has progressed far enough that Big Oil is starting to get really worried about it.

    Hooray!
    🙂 🙂 🙂

    “There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.” — Oscar Wilde

  28. Scramjett says:

    My fear is that they may actually succeed. I mean, they have been superbly successful at muddying the waters of climate change and so thoroughly discredited scientists in general and climate scientists in particular, I have a hard time believing they won’t be just as successful with EVs. Let’s not forget that they and their ilk have also successfully declared war on high speed rail and other transit projects. The conclusion here is that there is no reason why they won’t be as successful with EVs.

    Mark my words: a year from now, EVs in this country will be just as villainized as climate scientists and high speed rail.

    1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      I noticed that, sadly, high-speed rail isn’t being seriously promoted anywhere in the USA, but I didn’t realize it had been stigmatized. What did I miss?

      1. Scramjett says:

        You should seriously read some of the comments on the California High Speed Rail blog sometime. Also, take a look at the ignorant rhetoric that some of the governors who rejected federal high speed rail projects were spewing. Especially the Florida governor. Thanks to these guys and other ignorant jerks, opinion has turned against high speed rail.

        The “I hate everything Obama likes even if I used to like it” crowd deserve some blame also.

  29. Tyl says:

    I have over 60,000 free miles per zero gallons (fmpzg) during the past three years. Solar panels and superchargers are the way to go.
    Ya just can’t put that fact back in the bag no matter how hard one tries! With solar 2°C is being tackled at the same time with no CO2 being emitted into the atmosphere. It’s known that < 2°C is a must to help protect our little blue marble…. and all of us on it. No amount of dollars is going to turn the solar faucet off less we all cook and choke ourselves with oil, coal and all their toxic pollutants! Solar energy is here to stay. A paradigm shift is underway!!

  30. Someone out there says:

    I have to ask why, really. Yes, I know who the Koch brothers are but still. The writing is on the wall, EVs are coming and oil *is* running out (granted, there’s a lot of coal left). Imaginge what the Koch brothers could do if they turned around and decided to go “green”, they would be one most powerful groups in the business, if not the most powerful by a long shot. That would also mean a contingency plan for their business.
    Fighting the tide has always been a bad idea, if you’re not willing to adapt to new circumstances you are doomed to fail.

    1. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      Economic forces — like the development of practical EVs that are cheaper to operate than gasmobiles — are more powerful than even political forces. So yes, the EV revolution cannot be stopped, not even by the Koch Bros. and Big Oil lobbies. Even if every auto maker stopped building EVs tomorrow, battery tech would continue to advance, driven by the portable consumer electronics industry. Better batteries benefit cell phones and laptops, not just EVs. The economic forces which will eventually replace gasmobiles with EVs cannot be stopped.

      But the Koch Bros. and Big Oil lobbies certainly could slow the EV revolution in the U.S. quite a bit. Happily, not so much in China and many other countries.

      1. Someone out there says:

        Yeah they might be able to ruin the incentives in the USA but the rest of the world will go on and have an EV revolution anyway so they are really fighting for naught here.
        I read a little about the Koch’s on Wikipedia and I think Jim Thompson above here does have a point. The Koch’s are both hardcore libertarians and strongly dislike the government interfering in business so this article might be a little more conspiratorial than necessary.

  31. Get Real says:

    I agree that they are probably ultimately doomed to fail but I worry for all the children including my own that their pollution/political damage will be so great and long-lasting that their actions will eventually drag everyone and everything worth fighting for into the grave with them.

    1. Scramjett says:

      Yes, as a parent, I too fear those things. I genuinely loose sleep worrying about their future. I fear it’ll be a bad one also.

  32. super390 says:

    Why are the Kochs bankrolling efforts to prevent ordinary Americans from selling electricity to their local utilities by hitting them with ticky-tack fees and regulations? What could be more entrepreneurial than making and selling your own electricity?

    The Kochs claim they want to go back to the values of the small yeoman farmer, but with all the pollution and all the resistant bugs around, small farms have failed the test of the marketplace. Making our own electricity is the closest we can now get to that. Unless these guys in fact want the very opposite of self-reliance.

    1. Spec9 says:

      Because they don’t want the competition. Their claims of lofty principles is bunk. Everything they do is for their bottom line.

    2. Pushmi-Pullyu says:

      Because the Koch Bros. are heavily invested in petroleum production and refining, and in the Northeast USA, there is a lot of #4 diesel sold as heating oil, to heat homes in the winter.

      Any form of “alternative energy” competes with that market.

      It’s just human nature for people to choose the politics which best fit their lifestyle. Are the Koch Bros. honest about their resistance to government regulation, and their activism to eliminate limitations to pollution? Do they honestly believe in those principles, or is that just the excuse they use to justify how they have made careers out of dodging government regulations, dodging taxes, and even committing outright fraud, so their businesses can make more profit?

      At some point, the difference between self-serving justification and what people really believe, simply disappears. Tell yourself something is true often enough, and you’ll start to believe it.

      It does, however, come across as hypocrisy for them to claim they are for “no subsidies for anything”, when they benefit so greatly from how the public at large has to pay for the results of all the toxic poisons and air pollution their industries pour into the environment. We all have to pay for that through higher health insurance premiums, higher Medicare costs, tax money used to clean up toxic waste, etc. etc. (That’s not even getting into the issue of how trillions of U.S. taxpayer dollars have been used to provide military protection for overseas petroleum interests, including those owned by the Koch Bros.)

      The Koch Bros. may “officially” oppose direct subsidies, but they benefit to an obscene degree from indirect subsidies.

      * * * * *

      I find it amazing how the very long list of Koch Bros.’ involvement in hardcore criminal activities has been completely omitted from their Wikipedia entry… altho you can see a bit of discussion about that in the “Talk” page for that article.

      The Rolling Stone expose paints a rather different picture:

      http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/inside-the-koch-brothers-toxic-empire-20140924

      And a shout out to “Get Real” for posting that link above! That was a real eye-opener to me. I knew the Koch Bros. were heavily involved in lobbying and bribery of… er, “contributions to”… politicians, and manipulating public opinion by using “think tanks” and stories planted in newspapers.

      But I had no idea they and their businesses have been involved in so many, many cases of outright fraud, tax dodging, and other felonious criminal activities. I feel like I need a shower after skimming even part of that Rolling Stone expose!

      1. Epicurus says:

        “It does, however, come across as hypocrisy for them to claim they are for ‘no subsidies for anything’, when they benefit so greatly from how the public at large has to pay for the results of all the toxic poisons and air pollution their industries pour into the environment.”

        I wish everyone in America could understand this. This is the essential fallacy in the concept of the “free market.”

  33. Spec9 says:

    The Kochs are trolls.

  34. Nix says:

    If the Koch’s are serious about objecting to all of the tax subsidies they benefit from.

    If they were serious in their objections, many of them they could simply not claim in their taxes, and not take the preferential tax incentives.

  35. cleanworldnow says:

    Here’s a question to the community:

    What law could California pass that would have the greatest positive impact while addressing the needs and concerns of the 2/3 of california that are not located in the dense urban centers?

    I.e, How do we level the playing field for those who want to benefit from clean tech (Solar, evs, etc) and are NOT the wealthiest who can afford them today? (95%+ of Solar PV and p7%+ of EVs sold to date in CA have gone to single family homeowner who are less than 50% of the population.

    Something is wrong in that we’re not reaching the whole population as ICE cars do.

    Thoughts?

    1. Nix says:

      1) The majority of car owners rarely or never in their lifetime buy a brand new car. The lower the income, the higher the chance they buy used cars, gas or electric. The current program is working because the tax incentive is being passed through to the 2nd owner in the used car market. So while the tax incentive isn’t going to them directly, they are personally benefiting from that incentive being passed through to them.

      2) If California wants to take it a step further, they could introduce a used car incentive like Colorado.

      But to be clear, there is ZERO benefit to anybody to get people who can’t afford the payments to buy cars that they will lose to the repo man.

      But this is the reality of every single new technology. From running water in homes, to electric lights, to washing machines, to refrigerators. There is nothing magical about EV technology that is going to change that.

      You seem to be buying into a right-wing talking point which is being used to try and cut into EV incentives. The argument goes that incentives should go to people who make the median income or less, playing on populist themes. But the whole time they know that the median household income of new ICE car buyers is 65K-70K per year. They know about this disparity, and that people who make $50K or less rarely buy new cars at all. They know if they set the requirements for a tax incentive to be low enough that nobody buys new cars, they can effectively kill the EV tax incentive, without having to actually kill it.

      You seem to be buying into that rhetoric.

  36. Jay Cole says:

    In an unrelated matter, lol.

    InsideEVs will shortly be implementing a vote up/vote down system on comments. As it stands, the plan is to have any comments that generate a net “-10” to collapse and then need a “click” to re-open and be read.

    1. Nix says:

      The best implementation I’ve seen of a system like that, had the up and down scores hidden.

      That way it didn’t devolve in a Beauty Pageant score, with petty upvote/downvote fights on every post. It worked more like a community conscious to weed out negative content that might not rise to the level of requiring a mod to step in.